Mr. HATTON. That is what we have been doing. I think we have been doing that, have we not, Mr. Sherman?

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, now, that is interesting. Where is the appropriation stopped?

Mr. HATTON. There is a certain appropriation for improvements on the national forest, and only $50,000 of that has been apportioned to range improvements. And that is all we have been able to get for that particular purpose ever since the beginning. I think we got $100,000 one year.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, now, let me make this suggestion: Try to get a special appropriation to destroy those poisonous plants and I think you can get enough to do it. The temper of Congress is certainly in that direction. It is, at least, in the Senate. And we have had no difficulty in getting appropriations through the Senate to destroy these predatory animals, and are getting increased appropriations. I think if you were to put that poisonousplant situation by itself that you would have better fortune than to put it into a lump sum for range improvement.

Representative TAYLOR. Have you applied to General Lord of the Budget? Did you ask the Budget people for this money? Did you go up to the top?

Mr. SHERMAN. Yes, indeed.

Representative TAYLOR. Is that where you have applied?

Mr. SHERMAN. Oh, yes.

Representative TAYLOR. That is the place to go.

Mr. HATTON. Do you want to add anything to this, Mr. Sherman? Mr. SHERMAN. No.

Senator CAMERON. Now, have we got some other witnesses to hear?

Mr. HATTON. I have not quite finished. I want to say that we figure that this work we have done so far, and this $22,000 that we have spent has resulted in a saving of $150,000 to the cattle interests. An average of $20,000 a year for the territory covered.

Reseeding has been mentioned a few times. Back in 1910, 1911, and 1912 we conducted rather extensive experiments in reseeding throughout all the forests of the West. I think there were about 144 experiments, involving 22 species of grass, and we found from that that we could not improve on the natural condition on a scale as large as the forests, having the peculiarly favorable natural conditions for forage. So we got out of that this watchword, "Give the native species a chance or help nature help herself."

And that introduces the subject of seasons. They have worked out experimentally as a principle in the grazing experiment station near Manti, Utah, that to get the best forage production and to protect the life of the forage that it should have at least a two weeks' start before we put the stock on. And we try to work out that principle. If there is a lot of old feed left from the previous year it is not so necessary to keep them off that long. But we have found that we can not only improve the forage and increase it, but it is an advantage to the stockman to have that sort of a plan to put into effect.

Now, I will give you a single instance of just how that is worked out. It was done in connection with another matter, but it shows

what it profited this particular stockman. The benefit to him was largely in better bull service. He could hold his bulls in his private pastures later and get most of his cows bred before they were on the rough country, mountain country. Here is the result. That was Mr. Means over on the Cochetopa Forest.

In 1920 this company was running 1,041 head of cattle from May 1 to October 31. Last year they ran 1,375 cattle on the same allotment; that was 1923. But the season was from June 16 to September 15.

In 1921 yearling steers from this bunch of catle weighed 625 pounds. In 1922 yearling steers from this bunch of cattle weighed 650 pounds. In 1923 yearling steers from this bunch of cattle weighed 700 pounds even.

In 1920 their calf crop was 57 per cent. In 1923 their calf crop was 80 per cent. And Mr. Means figured that he would have 90 per cent calf crop the following year.

Now, working that out in pounds of production and numbers of stock it means an immense thing to a forest that is running 70,000 or 80,000 head of cattle.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Hatton, you heard Mr. Simpson's statement to-day about his transfer of his permit?

Mr. HATTON. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. Can you give us an explanation why that permit was transferred and another man was put on his place?

Mr. HATTON. I know quite a little about it, I think. It first came to my attention last spring through a telephone call of Mr. Davis, secretary of the State Association, to whom I think Mr. Simpson complained. He did not complain to our office, nor do I understand that he had complained to the supervisor's office.

I immediately got in touch with our records in the Denver office to see just what Mr. Simpson's past history on that particular range had been, and I was surprised to find that he had been taken care of for everything he had asked for for the two years that he had been renting on that range. But we took it up with the supervisor and asked him to see if he could not work out the difficulties and have an understanding. I think one complaint he made was that he wanted to get his sheep on the range. And he could not get the ranger to come and count them. There was a requirement on his permit that they should be counted, but we have information to show that the ranger could not get there to count the sheep at the particular time. Mr. Simpson called him up several times, I believe. But he gave him permission to go on without counting, and this is the report of the ranger. Just a brief sentence or two. [Reading:]

Mr. Claude D. Simpson called me over the phone several times, approximately between the 5th and 10th of May, and wanted me to come over and count his sheep. I told him that in case I did not get over, to turn the sheep on the spring range and that I would get a count when they went on the summer range or the shearing tally.

Senator CAMERON. Is that the file in the case?

Mr. HATTON. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. May we have the file? We will turn it back to you. We want to go over it.

Mr. HATTON. Yes. And here is the statement of the supervisors. Senator CAMERON. All right; we will go over it to-night. We will give it back to you.

Mr. HATTON. Just a brief statement. [Reading:]

I am very much surprised to learn Mr. Claude Simpson feels he has not received fair treatment relative to grazing matters on this forest. Not only has he been given all that he has asked for and was entitled to but he has this spring been given a permit, including early grazing by his sheep on the spring cattle range allotted him. This kind of use is against my best judgment, and was in this instance not the proper thing to do from the Forest Service grazing standpoint, but Mr. Simpson stated he had no other place to go, and upon referring the matter to Ranger Stavely there appeared to be no objection on his part. He was, however, given to understand that his sheep permit for this range was for this year only. The range was not used owing to the presence of pingue

That is a poison

which precluded the use of it by sheep.

And then he mentions putting him on another range. [Continuing reading:]

There is a possibility that Mr. Simpson feels that he has not been fairly treated in the allotment given him for sheep. During 1924 Supervisor Agee saw fit to allot him what is known as the Rough Creek allotment, which had formerly been used by Doctor Gotthelf. In the approval of applications for 1925 Doctor Gotthelf was given the Rough Creek allotment by Supervisor Agee, which is entirely regular according to our grazing regulations, since Simpson had used the range but one year.

Senator CAMERON. You need not read any more.

Mr. HATTON. Mr. Simpson took them over from his brother on a mortgage, and, of course, we recognize a mortgage transfer the same as we do a purchase with a waiver.

Now, as to the temporary part of that permit, as I say, he has been given all he has asked for. I think he mentioned he had some cattle. The purchase of the sheep put him over our maximum limit, and that is the reason part of it was put under temporary permit and the rest under a regular permit.

Senator CAMERON. All right, sir; we thank you very much for your statement.

Mr. HATTON. Now, I could say a lot more.
Senator CAMERON. Mr. Heuschkel.

STATEMENT OF JOHN HEUSCHKEL, FARMING AND CATTLE RAISING, CARBONDALE, COLO., CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, GARFIELD COUNTY

Senator CAMERON (presiding). Give your name, your address, and your occupation to the reporter, please.

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. John Heuschkel; Carbondale, Colo.; farming and cattle raising, and chairman of the board of county commissioners, Garfield County.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Heuschkel, you have a statement you would like to make?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL, I haven't any statement, much.

Senator CAMERON. Go on and state what you have to say in your

own way.

43213-25-PT 12- -15

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. I would like to have you ask me any questions you want. A number of years ago we used to have our cattle on what we call the spring and fall range. This land was taken up from time to time until at the present time we have to feed practically two months or longer more than we used to on account of the spring and fall, and the lowland is practically all taken up and we have no spring and fall range. That is a condition that exists with a number of us at this time.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Taken up by whom?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. By homesteaders. At one time, probably, our feeding was probably three months, where it is five now, and we have our private pastures that we turn in for sometimes two months, as well as the forage that we have to feed. And the number of cattle in the county has been growing less from year to year. In 1916 and 1917 I believe the cattle assessed in Garfield County were in the neighborhood of 40,000. At the present time it is down to 26,000; and our records will show that the livestock men are carrying about all the load that they can and keep agoing. As we put it, we are going to grow out if we can.

Senator CAMERON. Are you on the forest reserve?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Yes; we are on the forest reserve. We have something in the neighborhood of 100 permittees on our range. Senator CAMERON. What forest reserve are you on?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. The Holy Cross and part of the White River. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you chairman of the board of county commissioners of this county?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. Are you familiar with the assessment values placed on 640-acre homesteads?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Yes; I think so.

Mr. BOWDEN. What does it run an acre?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Why, in our county from $2.25 up. It varies in the different class of pasture land; $2.25 is the lowest.

Mr. BOWDEN. What is the highest?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. About $5 on that kind of land.

Mr. BOWDEN. What rate of tax do you pay on an assessed valuation?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Close to 4 per cent. That is, all told.

Mr. BOWDEN. What county is that?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Garfield County.

Representative TAYLOR. That is this county. This county runs to the Utah line.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you think the valuation placed on those home. steads is fair, represents their fair value?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. That was as near as we could get at it in our judgment; yes. Although a number of these homesteads that were taken up are going back, that were never proved up.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you know what 640-acre homestead land is leasing for around here?

Mr. HEUSCHKELL. No; I do not. There has been very little of it in our country, as far as I know, that has been patented. It seems like this here 640-acre land, what has been taken, they have not any more than proven up on some of it just recently. I think at this time if the Government could see any way where the cattlemen-where the

livestock men could have free use of the range it would be a wonderful help to them. It would be a great help to them if their burden would be lightened. And if they ever needed it, why they need it at this time.

Senator CAMERON. Is the cattle business at about as low an ebb now as it ever has been in its history?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. That I can remember of; yes.

Senator CAMERON. The cattle industry in this country has fallen off a great deal, has it not?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. That is, there are not nearly as many as there were in 1916-17?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. No; the figures will show in our county that we had about 40,000 cattle in 1916-17, or approximately 40,000, and about 26,000 at this time.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, that is the case with the range cattle business generally, whether they range on the public domain or the forest reserve or private land, is it not?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Yes, sir. The condition that we have is a good deal like Mr. Light spoke of. We had some citizens that it was necessary with the cooperation of our local forest men, to form into an association, and we formed an association, and having our bull regulations, and salt, in order that we could regulate the range and salt it properly, which has been worked out wonderfully well in our particular locality with the number of permittees. But it would be a question how we would be handled under the lease, because we could not very well fence that in and separate the tracts on account of the water.

Senator CAMERON. Could you not handle it in community lots? Mr. HEUSCHKEL. I think so. That is the way it is handled at this time with the association.

Representative TAYLOR. Mr. Heuschkel, I would like to ask you a question, in view of the statement by the last witness, Mr. Hatton, as to the limited number of people that have been before this committee. You know the stock association and you know these men that have been before this committee to-day, do you not?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Yes.

Representative TAYLOR. And do you know that Mr. Callen and others here represent a large number of associations?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Yes, sir.

Representative TAYLOR. As a matter of fact, the witnesses we have had here to-day represent something like 20 associations or more, do they not, of stockmen?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Yes.

Representative TAYLOR. And it is utterly impossible for all of them to come before this committee?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Yes.

Representative TAYLOR. But they send their representative or their district attorney, and you as the chairman of the board of county commissioners of this county, and myself as the Congressman; why, we represent the people of western Colorado, do we not?

Mr. HEUSCHKEL. Yes, sir.

Representative TAYLOR. Another thing. The limited number of poisoned stock that they found on the range was referred to. As a