any suggestions that will help us at any time, we want to get them. That is just our frame of mind. And we want to do what will be for the best interests of this community.

With what I have said I have intended to indicate some of the questions that will arise in connection with the discussion of the problem, and which may be urged much more earnestly by some one else than by myself. We want to do what is right and what will help out, and there is no man who appreciates the great work which you pioneers have done more than I do. I have been a resident of this West for a little over 40 years, and know something about the problems of the West.

I agree with you that in the Interior Department we ought to have a man from the West. These are questions which can be solved, in my judgment, only by those who have been in close contact with them, and can appreciate the things that are said by the people who are on the ground. And I only hope that we will bring about some correct solution of it.

I am inclined to doubt whether we ought at this time to undertake to make any permanent disposition of these lands, but you people are entitled to relief, in my judgment beyond any question, in some fashion.

Mr. LIGHT. Senator Cameron said to Mr. Sloss, "Don't you think that the Government should give you three years free permit?" Sloss said "Yes." And that kind of loosened me. I felt friendly toward him.

Senator CAMERON. I still think so.

Representative TAYLOR. You thought you had a friend in court

here.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, the cattle industry has been passing through an extreme state of depression, and there are many causes which are contributing to it. And what is going to be the outcome is very difficult to say. I have tried to keep in close touch with the cattle business. I have been in the business myself. I have been in the sheep business. And I know the problems that the livestock industry must deal with. And they are very far-reaching at the present time, according to my judgment. The conditions since the war have rendered those industries, especially the cattle industry, unprofitable, speaking generally.

I am glad to say that in my judgment the price of cattle is getting better. And it may be that time will help to solve these problems, or some of them.

Now I imagine that in 1919, when the price of cattle was high, and you could sell any class of cattle that you might have, that you would not have hesitated about whether you paid 70 cents a head for summer grazing or 80 cents. And so it is these varying conditions surrounding the industry that all bear upon the industry. And we have all the grit and that pioneer spirit yet, and we are hanging on and hoping to come out and to be prosperous. And it is a great game to play, isn't it?

Mr. LIGHT. It surely is.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. And we are going to play it; we are going to stay in the business if we can. If that banker does not crowd us too much we are going to stay with it. And I am hoping that conditions will be much better, and I am willing to express an

opinion at least that they are getting better for the cattlemen of the country.

European conditions are deplorable. I think that conditions there have got to right themselves to an appreciable extent before we can come back in the way that we would like to do. We are great exporters of meat products and fats, and those people have got to arrange in some fashion to buy. And that is a difficult problem for them.

This question of payment of international indebtedness, not only as between governments but between individuals who are dealing in international commodities, is causing a great deal of concern to the countries in Europe as well as to the United States. I am afraid that we are not giving it sufficient concern. The United States last year advanced to the rest of the world over one and one-half billion dollars of credit. I think that in the very nature of things this country is going to become saturated sooner or later with foreign paper. We have been keeping up our foreign commerce by an extension of credit. Pay day must come sooner or later, and it will be necessary for us to make it possible for those foreign countries to pay us and enable us to export our fat and meat products to those countries.

It goes without saying that every class of meat is in competition with every other class. If pork is high and beef is cheap people will eat more beef and less pork until the price of pork comes down. And so with other classes of meat products. In fact, all food products.

The exportation of wheat, the price of wheat has a bearing on this question. If oatmeal is cheap and wheat is high, people will eat more oatmeal and less wheat. I presume everyone has had an actual illustration brought within his observation of that fact.

And so there we are. We are tied up in a way with the general prosperity of the country, and the question of our international trade-it is all involved. But the world is coming back from the very serious effects of the war, in my judgment. And as it comes back these conditions will work themselves out a little more and more from time to time. And we ought to realize our close contact and our absolute dependence, so far as prices are concerned, regarding a great many of our commodities upon that European condition.

And we must look beyond. We have got to consider things beyond the mere question of grazing fees. They are right at home, and I agree with Senator Cameron that in this state of depression that even the grazing fees ought to be made just as light as possible, if not removed altogether until the industry does come back to a reasonable basis. But we have got these other questions to consider as well, and your prosperity and that of every other stockman is dependent upon the final working out of these very broad questions which involve not only this community but the whole of the United States, and many countries of the world.

I have given and am giving to these questions as much thought as I can. I am a member of the Finance Committee of the Senate, and it has been part of my duty all during the war and since to try to work out these financial problems. And after having given to the situation as much study as I could I think conditions are getting better. And I feel that you people ought to have some encouragement; in other words, I do not think times will be as bad as they have been in the last few years for you.

But this grazing problem is one that is right here. It is a practical thing. It is one that surrounds you, and you see it from day to day, and we want to make those conditions just as easy for you as we possibly can.

Senator CAMERON. Well, Mr. Light, if there is anything more, why, we will hear it, and if not, we will go on with the next witness. Mr. LIGHT. I have nothing more.

Senator CAMERON. Thank you very much. Mr. Randall.

STATEMENT OF 0. W. RANDALL, EAGLE, COLO., HOMESTEADER AND STOCKMAN

Senator CAMERON (presiding). Mr. Randall, will you give your name, your residence, and your occupation to the reporter?

Mr. RANDALL. O. W. Randall, Eagle, Colo.; dentist by profession; homesteader and small stockman.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Randall, I understand you want to take up the question of the forest reserve?

Mr. RANDALL. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. State what you have to say on that subject to the committee.

Mr. RANDALL. I wish to voice an earnest and vigorous protest against the present practice or policy of the Forest Service with respect to the homesteader within the national forest. I am from Eagle County. In the past five years there has developed a vegetable industry there in the higher altitude, and it is impossible for the homesteader or anyone else to get any of the agricultural grounds that are within the national forest. It does not seem to make any difference how fit it is for agricultural purposes. How devoid of any forestation it is, the fact remains that you go around in a circle when you try to get any ground from the Forest Service.

Senator CAMERON. In other words, you can not take up a homestead within the forest reserve?

Mr. RANDALL. You can, according to law.

Senator CAMERON. I understand the law says you can, but the restrictions say you can not; is that it?

Mr. RANDALL. Well, they make it very difficult. I have a homestead that I have completed patent on. It has 71 acres. And the adjoining ground is precisely the same character of grounds, and I need the land, and I can not get it. I have been given to understand that I would get it when I completed patent. That if my patent was granted it would show that that was agricultural ground. But that man has gone, and other officials are there in his place.

That is just simply an illustration of the conditions that prevail in the valley. I don't think that there is a ranger station in our county but what has applications for agricultural ground, and I have not heard of one being granted. They are held back. The ostensible excuse is that this vegetable industry is new and they are waiting to see whether it is genuine or not. It has brought in from $50,000 to $200,000 a year in the last five years each year, cash money, in the beginning of the season in our valley at a time when no other crop money is available. But they don't seem to think that that merits their consideration.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. You say that is a new industry?

Mr. RANDALL. Comparatively new in this country. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Do you object to telling us what it is?

Mr. RANDALL. Head lettuce and peas and spinach and cauliflower and hardy vegetables of that character. They go to high altitudes, 8,000 to 10,000 feet, and they grow to a crispness and quality that is not surpassed anywhere.

Senator CAMERON. Do they give you any definite reason why you can not get this land?

Mr. RANDALL. Oh, yes; they give you plenty of reasons.
Senator CAMERON. What are they, please?

Mr. RANDALL. For instance, there are two ways that you are supposed to get additional ground. One is by reclassification or a request for review of reclassification, and the other is by an exchange of lands. And they will examine your land, and they will tell you that in their judgment it is not agricultural land; and that is all there is to it. And if you ask for an exchange of land they will look at the land, and in one instance an official told me that the act provides that this land can only be exchanged where it is properly surveyed. In my case the ground is not surveyed. It is by metes and bounds.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. How high an elevation is the land? Mr. RANDALL. Eight thousand five hundred feet. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Lots of rainfall? Mr. RANDALL. Yes; we sometimes have too much. We had too much this year. The year before last we had too much. Last year it was the reverse; rather a dry season.

Senator CAMERON. Who is the forester in charge of your district? Mr. RANDALL. Mr. Borden is the supervisor.

Senator CAMERON. Is he here?

Mr. RANDALL. I think he is here.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Borden?

Mr. BORDEN. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Will you please come forward.

STATEMENT OF H. L. BORDEN, FOREST SUPERVISOR, GLENWOOD SPRINGS, COLO.

Senator CAMERON (presiding). Will you give the reporter your full name, your occupation, and your residence?

Mr. BORDEN. H. L. Borden; forest supervisor; Glenwood Springs. Senator CAMERON. Can you give us some enlightenment on the statement Mr. Randall has just made?

Mr. BORDEN. We considered the land as timberland, Senator, and that is not subject to homesteading. The particular land that Doctor Randall has-there had to be considerable timber removed from that land before it was put under cultivation, and the outlying parts that adjoin his land we figure are more valuable for forest purposes than they are for agricultural purposes.

Senator CAMERON. That is, for timber?

Mr. BORDEN. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Well, would the agricultural part of it hurt the timber?

Mr. BORDEN. You would have to remove the timber in order to make use of the land for agriculture.

Senator CAMERON. The land will still be there after the timber is removed, will it not?

Mr. BORDEN. Certainly; but it won't be growing trees like there are there now.

Senator CAMERON. Are there any new trees growing on this land? Mr. BORDEN. There is a fine young stand on there, except in intervening small parts that could not be segregated from any other land. Senator JONES of New Mexico. What kind of timber is on the land now?

Mr. BORDEN. Lodgepole pine.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. What size?

Mr. BORDEN. Oh, I expect it runs from 6 to 8 inches.
Senator JONES of New Mexico. What is that good for?

Mr. BORDEN. Mining timber and saw timber in the future. It does not have the value now that it will have in the future.

Senator CAMERON. Is there any saw timber in that district?

Mr. BORDEN. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Adjacent to this land in question?

Mr. BORDEN. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Have you sold any of the saw timber up in that section?

Mr. BORDEN. Yes, sir; we are selling it now.

Senator CAMERON. Have you sold any of this tie timber or pole timber that you are talking about?

Mr. BORDEN. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. How much additional land have you applied for? [Addressing Mr. Randall.]

What Mr.

Mr. RANDALL. Additional land to make 160 acres. Borden states with reference to the timber-the land that I asked for has quaking aspen timber on it, and there are not 200 trees on the entire tract that I have asked for that is of lodge-pole pine or anything else but quaking aspen; and that is little stuff that they tell me is not merchantable timber.

Senator CAMERON. Do you think the Forest Service would be injured to a great extent if they would grant Mr. Randall this land question that he has asked for?

Mr. BORDEN. It is not an individual case, Senator, that we are concerned about. One case brings on a good many other cases of that particular kind, and we have found in past years that, I think I can safely say, 99 out of 100 of them have never made a success on the homestead that they already have. At least, that is my experience in the last 12 years.

Senator CAMERON. How long have you been in the Forest Service?

Mr. BORDEN. About 13 years.

Senator CAMERON. What State are you from?

Mr. BORDEN. Pennsylvania.

Senator CAMERON. You ought to be pretty liberal in your ideas. That is a pretty good State. It looks to me that if there would be more give and take on the part of some of you fellows in charge of the forests that there would be less friction and less animosity