Senator JONES of New Mexico. But in estimating that commercial value, all of these factors that Mr. Rees and others have mentioned here should be taken into consideration? Mr. CALLEN. Absolutely. We consider the distance that we are from the market, as I say. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you think the present fees are too high? Mr. BOWDEN. And you are not in favor of the increase proposed in the Rachford appraisal? Mr. CALLEN. Absolutely not. I think they are too high. We do not believe, from a grazing standpoint, that there should be a charge made of the users of the forage for any expenditure and upkeep of tree and plant seeding-well, plant seeding, of course, would be better-but the timber values ought to carry their part of it, and the planting of trees for the future forest; we ought to pay a part of the expense of keeping up the grazing. The value of that grass is there, and that is all that ought to be considered, we think, as users of the grass. Mr. BOWDEN. Well, of course, there is the one principle of charging fees, the cost of administration; and the other, the value of the forage. Now, the cost of administration ought not to be taken into consideration in determining the other. Mr. CALLEN. Well, why put it at the same price? Why should the forester say that you would have it all at the same price? We have to determine that from the value of that grass. There is a difference in value of grass in different locations. You might get a gravelly soil in one forest reserve and a black loam and a heavy grass in another. As I say, you might have a bunch of grass, which cattle tire of, and then take another district in the forest reserve that has three or four different kinds of grass which they will work on from one to the other. You will have also the difference in altitudes. You will have the altitude of the Leadville National Forest as against the altitude of the forest here. And then the difference in the season of freezing. So there is a great difference in the value. Mr. BOWDEN. That is all. Mr. CALLEN. I have these two permit slips showing the dates of putting the cattle on and taking them off that I referred to. Senator CAMERON. Very well, you may put them in the record if you wish. (The two permit slips presented by Mr. Callen for the record are here printed, as follows:) THE DENVER NATIONAL BANK, United States Depository, Denver, Colo.: NOVEMBER 30, 1921. There is inclosed herewith a draft for three hundred fifty and no/100 dollars drawn payable to your order, to be placed to the credit of the Treasurer of the United States. This deposit is on account of an application dated 1-12-20 for a permit to graze 900 head of cattle, 20 head of horses, head of - upon lands of the United States within the Battlement National Forest, which has been approved for 500 head of cattle, five-year permit-third year, the stock to be allowed in District No. 8, west divide, 500 head of cattle from 5-1-21 to 11-30-21. Silt, Colo. R. C. CALLEN, JOHN W. SPENCER, Supervisor. This receipt validates your five-year permit for the ensuing season as shown on this form, which is made a part of your five-year permit. There is inclosed herewith a draft for one hundred fifty and no/100 dollars, drawn payable to your order, to be placed to the credit of the Treasurer of the United States. This deposit is on account of an application dated 1-12-20 for a permit to graze 900 head of cattle, 20 head of horses, head of upon lands of the United States within the Battlement National Forest, which has been approved for 500 head of cattle, head of -, five-year permit-fourth year, the stock to be allowed in District No. 8, west divide, 500 head of cattle from 5-16-22 to 11-15-22. R. C. CALLEN, Silt, Colo. JOHN W. SPENCER. Supervisor. This receipt validates your five-year permit for the ensuing season, as shown on this form which is made part of your five-year permit. JOHN W. SPENCER, Senator CAMERON. That will be all; thank you, sir. Mr. Sloss. STATEMENT OF S. P. SLOSS, CATTLE RAISER, SLOSS, COLO. Senator CAMERON (presiding). Give your name and address to the reporter, Mr. Sloss. Mr. SLOSS. S. P. Sloss. Sloss, Colo. Senator CAMERON. What is your occupation, Mr. Sloss? Senator CAMERON. Do you have a statement you wish to make to the committee? Mr. SLOSS. Well, not particularly, Senator. Senator CAMERON. Are you grazing on any forest reserve? Mr. SLOSS. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. What is the name of the forest reserve? Mr. SLOSS. The Holy Cross Forest Reserve. Senator CAMERON. What are you in, the sheep or cattle business? Mr. SLOSS. Cattle. Senator CAMERON. Have you any sheep? Mr. SLOSS. No, sir. Senator CAMERON. Do you graze on the public domain? Mr. SLOSS. No, sir. Senator CAMERON. All on the forest reserve? Mr. SLOSS. All on the forest reserve. Senator CAMERON. How long have you been in the cattle business, Mr. Sloss? Mr. SLOSS. About 45 years. Senator CAMERON. An old-timer. Have you any complaints or any suggestions you wish to offer the committee on the administration of the forest reserve? Mr. SLOSS. I don't know as I have any particular complaints. I think there are some things that might be bettered in some ways. Senator CAMERON. Will you give us the benefits of your ideas, Mr. Sloss? Mr. SLOSS. I don't know just exactly how to go at it. Representative TAYLOR. Mr. Sloss, will you tell this committee what is the difference between the value of forest reserve grazing and the grazing upon privately owned lands, and whether or not they can be compared, or can a just estimate of the value of forest reserve range be determined by the value placed on privately owned land? Mr. SLOSS. It would be a pretty hard matter to compare, in my estimation, in my experience. Representative TAYLOR. Tell why. Mr. SLOSS. The privately owned land is situated in a much better location, better feed on it, better water, and the elevation is very much lower as a general thing, and it would be a very hard thing to compare, in my estimation. I would not know how to go at it. It is worth several times more than the grazing way back on these mountains, where we have to go. And we have to cut poison weed, and we have to build miles of drift fence to hold our cattle back, and all that sort of thing. We have spent a good deal of money and time cutting poison and building drift fences on our part of the range in a good many years. Senator CAMERON. Is there poison weed in this section? Mr. SLOSS. There is on our section; very bad. Senator CAMERON. What is the loss? Mr. SLOSS. Well, the loss before we cut poison would probably run up to 10, 15, 20 per cent. We have got that cut down so it would not run on an average over 3 and 4 per cent. Senator CAMERON. How much do you pay for the summer grazing! Mr. SLOSS. Seven cents. We have no winter grazing. Senator CAMERON. How long are you on the forest reservemany months? -how Mr. SLOSS. We are permitted to turn out the middle of April, and our permit runs to November the 30th. We seldom, however, are able to take advantage of that later grazing. Usually about the first to the middle of November we have to come out. Senator CAMERON. Then you have to feed the balance of the year? Mr. SLOSS. Yes, sir. Well, we have private pastures. They keep them, say, up to the 1st or the 15th of December. Representative TAYLOR. And you own the private pastures yourself, do you not? Mr. SLOSS. Yes, sir. Representative TAYLOR. Mr. Sloss has a string of ranches up the Fryingpan River. Senator CAMERON. How much per head do you figure it costs you to run your cattle on your private pastures and your feeding? Mr. SLOSS. Well, it varies with the price of hay. Some years hay is cheaper than others. It is pretty hard to estimate exactly. We had some stuff outside last year that wintered out, where we bought all the hay, that ran up close to $15 a head. There is no profit in cattle where you have to do that. Senator Cameron. How do you feel about the dispoition of the public domain or the public land that is left? Mr. SLOSS. I feel that it ought to be put under control, but while we haven't got any of it, I am familiar with all of this western part of the country pretty well, having lived here so long. Senator CAMERON. Do you think a lease law ought to be worked out? Mr. SLOSS. Well, something on that plan. I don't think that a man could afford to take this land, if it was given to him, and pay taxes on it, hardly, even if it was given to him—that is, the majority of it. There is some that is a little better than others. I was on a committee here this spring to meet with the oil-shale people. They had leased a certain section of land down here in the Rifle section to a sheepman, and this sheepman had been in there some little time, and he had not gotten closer than 10 miles of his lease. He was off on this public land, you know, and he, of course, had a right there as well as anybody. And that was a two-day meeting, one day here and one day at Rifle, and the stockmen and the shale men got together, and we got it probably adjusted for later years. Representative TAYLOR. Well, we have had sheep and cattle wars and had several murders and a great deal of trouble in years back. Mr. SLOSS. Not in recent years, but 25 years back there were quite a few of them. Representative TAYLOR. Is there anything further that occurs to you, Mr. Sloss, that you want to say to this committee? Mr. SLOSS. There is one thing I would like to speak of that properly comes before this committee, and that is that on the forest reserve we are assessed so much, and 10 per cent goes to road and 25 per cent, I believe it is, goes back to the United States Government. I think that that is a kind of double taxation of the stockman and timberman and sheepman and everybody that pays that. It hardly seems right to me. Everybody ought to come in and pay their just share of the taxes. I don't think the stockman ought to be called on to pay that and then give it back. Senator CAMERON. What disposition do you think ought to be made of that 35 per cent? Mr. SLOSS. I think that it ought to be cut off of our grazing fees in the first place; that is my idea of it. It should never be taxed up to us. Senator CAMERON. Do you think the grazing fees ought to be reduced that much, anyhow? Mr. SLOSS. Yes, sir; I do. Senator CAMERON. How do you feel about the grazing fees at the present time? Are they too high? Mr. SLOSS. They are too high. With all the things we have to combat otherwise, the grazing fees are too high. Representative TAYLOR. Tell them why they are too high. Are any cattlemen making any money in this country? Mr. SLOSS. That is the very reason why we are not making any money, and we have hard work keeping our names in the books at the banks so that we can kind of try to keep a-going. They are in the red much of the time. Senator CAMERON. What percertage of the cattlemen have gone out of business here since 1919? Mr. SLOSS. Well, I would not be able to say what percentage, but several of the very oldest and best stockmen that we have had in the country have had to quit. Senator CAMERON. Has it been quite a large percentage? Senator CAMERON. Are the cattlemen that remain here at the present time having a pretty hard time to pull through? Mr. SLoss. If there is a single cattleman making any money I don't know where he is. Senator CAMERON. Well, most of them are losing money, are they not? Mr. SLOSS. Yes; slipping a little all the time. Representative TAYLOR. Most of them have lost about all they have got, have they not? Mr. SLOSS. Yes. Senator CAMERON. Is there anything else you want to bring before the committee, Mr. Sloss? Senator JONES of New Mexico. It would not do, would it, Mr. Sloss, even in this section of the country-that is, I mean this northwestern part of Colorado-to grant a blanket right to lease all of the public domain, for the reason that are there not portions of this public domain surrounding these ranches which these ranchmen actually have the exclusive use of? Mr. SLOSS. It would be a hardship on a great many small men that would not be able to lease. Probably some one could come in from the outside. I imagine that if that law was put into effect, a man from the outside would have just as much right to bid on this leasing proposition, provided no one near would be able to take it, and would take his place up right alongside of a small ranchman that could not afford to do it, and practically confiscate his ranch property. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Do not a great many of those small ranchmen have actually the exclusive use now of certain portions of the public domain surrounding their private holdings? Mr. SLOSS. Yes, sir. Senator JONES of New Mexico. And you do not think it would be advisable to pass any law which would enable anybody else to get a lease on that? Mr. SLOSS. Well, I would hate to say that it would not be advisable. I think it would be really advisable. I think some kind of control should be put on it. It has to hurt some one some place. Senator JONES of New Mexico. How beneficial would it be, if at all, to allow these ranchmen to purchase a certain area immediately surrounding their ranches? Mr. SLOSS. Senator, I think that while that looks all right it would be hard for him to pay the taxes on this land after he got it. Now I think they are assessing our land that is not fit for agriculture, just simply grazing land, something like $3 to $5 an acre. Well, you know if they do that you can readily see that that would run up to 7 per cent taxation in different counties. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Who does that assessing? 43213-25-PT 12- -10 |