the old-timers would say " You can not make a living here." "Well," they said, "we can live some way. That is about all we managed to do where we came from." And the usual procedure would be for the man in the summer time to go out and work, and he would stay in there in the winter, and put his crop in in the spring, and oftentimes he would go to the Kansas harvest fields where he would get six or seven dollars a day for 30 or 40 days, and he worked elsewhere for a time, and that is the way he would exist until he patented his lands. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, that land is being used by some? Mr. BEACH. Some of it is and some is not. The country is slowly opening up. The sheep men are getting in there and getting larger herds. They are leasing it, and gradually expanding, but that is the beginning of it. It is a slow process. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Is there any surplus grazing in that country now? Mr. BEACH. There is good grazing there just now. Senator JONES of New Mexico. But it has been going through a drought period? Mr. BEACH. Yes; 18 months of a drought period. The drought broke in July; we had rains in July and August, and we have good grazing there now. The land is assessed on the assessment roll at about $600 a quarter section, that is the assessed valuation, and the taxes run from $9 to $12 a quarter, depending mostly on the school taxes, which causes the variation in the tax. Senator JONES of New Mexico. The State has made a little revenue? Mr. BEACH. The State has made a little revenue. Some of it, of course, is sold for taxes. Senator JONES of New Mexico. And it will be used whether those settlers who have proved up on it use it or not, will it? Mr. BEACH. Well, eventually I think it will. Senator CAMERON. It will go back to grazing again, will it? Mr. BEACH. Yes, that is my opinion about it from my observation and residence in the country for a good many years. Senator CAMERON. That will be all, thank you very much. Mr. Parsons. STATEMENT OF FRANK PARSONS, CATTLE RAISER, WESTON, COLO., MEMBER OF THE STATE BOARD OF STOCK INSPECTION COMMISSIONERS OF COLORADO Senator CAMERON. Mr. Parsons, will you give your name, your address, and your position to the reporter? Mr. PARSONS. Frank Parsons, Weston, Colo. A member of the State board of stock inspection commissioners of this State. Senator CAMERON. Have you a statement you would like to make to the committee? Mr. PARSONS. Not in particular, Senator. I am in the cattle business, and I am only recently on the forest reserve. I have been running a few cattle on the reserve for the last three years. Senator CAMERON. What reserve are you on, Mr. Parsons? Senator CAMERON. How much of a permit have you; for how many head? Mr. PARSONS. This year I am running 300 head. Mr. PARSONS. No, sir; just an annual permit. I have a permanent permit for 50 head, and special permit for-last year I had 150 on the special permit, and this year on account of the drought they gave me a special permit for 250, but I only have a permanent permit for 50 head. It would not be worth while bothering with if I did not own and have other leased land adjoining the reserve. Senator CAMERON. Do you lease that from the State? Mr. PARSONS. No; I rent it from private individuals. Mr. PARSONS. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. You do not run anything on the public domain? Mr. PARSONS. No, sir; I do not run anything on the public domain. Senator CAMERON. Have you anything else you wish to say to the committee, Mr. Parsons? Mr. PARSONS. No. Senator CAMERON. Senator Jones? Senator JONES of New Mexico. No; unless you have something special you would like to state, Mr. Parsons? Mr. PARSONS. Well, all the objection I have to the forest reserve is that it is not permanent. Now, of course, next year there might someone come in and I would only have 50 head, which would not be worth bothering with. Now I have a good many thousand acres of leased land adjoining the reserve. I own some property that I bought a few years ago adjoining the reserve. Senator JONES of New Mexico. And is your main point that you would like to get a permanent right to lease in the forest reserve? Mr. PARSONS. Yes; to get a permanent right to lease, something in the way of a ten or fifteen year lease. I have leased for years from the Maxwell grant-you are familiar with that-and I am on the Colorado portion of it at the present time. You are familiar with that? Senator JONES of New Mexico. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Would you be in favor of establishing the area basis on the forest reserve? Mr. PARSONS. Well, in a way I would; yes. Under certain conditions. It should not be abused and overstocked. Mr. BOWDEN. An inspection by the Forest Service at frequent intervals will protect the range? Mr. PARSONS. Generally; as a rule a good stockman will not overstock his range, but there are people who would. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you found any objections with the Forest Service rules, such as salting rules, and rules relative to bulls and commensurability? Mr. PARSONS. No, sir. It has been very satisfactory. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you think that some agency ought to be created to which a permittee could appeal from the decision of a Forest Service officer against his interests. Mr. PARSONS. Well, I would not say that I would advocate that. I have never had any difficulty with the Forest Service officers. Mr. BOWDEN. Would you be satisfied in leaving any decision affecting your property interests on the forest reserve or concerning any violation of a rule by you to the Forest Service officer in charge of the forest reserve? Mr. PARSONS. Yes, sir; I would. Mr. BOWDEN. That is all. Senator CAMERON. That will be all, unless you have any further statement. Thank you, Mr. Parsons. That concludes the hearing to-day, and the committee will now adjourn to meet in Glenwood Springs to-morrow morning at 9 o'clock. (Thereupon, at 6 o'clock p. m. Tuesday, October 6, 1925, the committee adjourned to reconvene at Glenwood Springs, Colo., the fol lowing day, Wednesday, October 7, 1925.) NATIONAL FORESTS AND THE PUBLIC DOMAIN WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 7, 1925 UNITED STATES SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC LANDS AND SURVEYS, The subcommittee met at 9 o'clock a. m., on Wednesday, October 7, 1925, at Glenwood Springs, Colo., pursuant to adjournment on yesterday, Senator Ralph Cameron presiding. There was also present and sitting with the subcommittee Representative Edward T. Taylor, of the fourth district of Colorado. Senator CAMERON (presiding). The committee will come to order. This is a subcommittee of the Committee on Public Lands and Surveys of the United States Senate. This subcommittee is working under Senate Resoluton No. 347. We are holding this meeting to take testimony pertaining to the public lands, including Indian reservations, forest reserves, national parks, and the public domain. This committee has now visited 10 out of the 11 States that are particularly interested in the public-land questions. We go from here to New Mexico. We are here for information, and we wish you would all talk freely to us. We are just human like you all are. We want to get the facts, and we expect to get them from you. The first witness is Mr. Rees. Representative TAYLOR. Mr. Chairman. Senator CAMERON. Mr. Taylor. Representative TAYLOR. The stockmen of western Colorado held an informal meeting in this town last Saturday and elected as chairman Mr. Claude H. Rees, who is the representative in the State legislature from this, Garfield County, and the adjoining Rio Blanco County, and who is one of our substantial stockmen, and he will act as the spokesman and chairman of this delegation and present them to you in the order in which they decided to start out. Of course, everybody feels free to come in here, and there will be a great many people that will appear before you. But we felt it proper to have some systematic presentation of the matter, and Mr. Rees, and State Senator Callen and several of the more substan tial stockmen will lead off. Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. Rees. 43213-25-PT 12 -7 3361 |