Mr. Goss. Well, partly. I have grazed in the forest reserve but not for several years.

Mr. BOWDEN. Does the State have any such supervision as the Forest Service has?

Mr. Goss. No, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Now, what is the condition of the State lands that you are familiar with relative to the forage thereon?

Mr. Goss. Well, I consider the State lands superior in forage to most of the forest reserve.

Mr. BOWDEN. Are they overgrazed?

Mr. Goss. The State lands?

Mr. BOWDEN. Yes.

Mr. Goss. In some cases they are.

There is no one comes around to see when they are overgrazed. It is just merely left up to the lessee.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you believe if the Forest Service would lease forest reserve range for grazing purposes for a period of years leaving to the lessee the control of the grazing, that the lessee would misuse the range?

Mr. Goss. It is my impression that the forest reserve range is very easily abused. The gramma grass sod which is mostly on State land comes back very quickly, but on the forest reserve range the grass disappears very rapidly, and if it is overstocked but a short time I think it hurts it badly.

Mr. BOWDEN. Well, it is your opinion then that the Forest Service should exercise such supervision as it does over its ranges? Mr. Goss. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. BOWDEN. All right. That is all.

Senator CAMERON. Any questions, Senator?

Senator JONES of New Mexico. How large an area of land have you leased?

Mr. Goss. Eighty thousand acres.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Do you object to telling what rent you pay?

Mr. Goss. Why about 10 cents an acre.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. And if these men who use the forest reserves are given permanent leases they would be put on an equal basis with yourself, would they?

Mr. Goss. They might be; yes, sir.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. And would you think that they ought to pay any such rent as 10 cents an acre?

Mr. Goss. No, sir; I don't think they could.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. What is the difference between using the land in the forest reserve and the State lands?

Mr. Goss. Well, of course there are parts of the forest reserve where the grass is very good and very suitable, but then there is so much of it where there isn't any grass on, and then there is such a short grazing season. We graze the year around. We are quite close to the railroad, and they are at a distance. And they have a big poison loss that we do not have. And the cattle are mixed up. They have to wait until they all get ready to round-up at one time. And I round-up when I get ready, with no one to consult.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Goss, on your leased land how many acres does it take for your animals?

Mr. Goss. About 30 or 40.

Senator CAMERON. Does it take as much as on the public domain? Mr. Goss. Yes. That is, I graze that way. I probably could graze it heavier. A good year it takes 30 acres, and a bad year it takes 40.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Then, your grass in a year costs you three or four dollars a year per head?

Mr. Goss. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Yours is all under fence, is it not?

Mr. Goss. Yes; all under fence, subdivided.

Senator CAMERON. The overhead is not much to keep up then, is it? Mr. Goss. Not very much; no.

Senator CAMERON. That has to be taken into consideration, does it not?

Mr. Goss. Yes; it certainly has. One man and myself

Senator CAMERON. Have 80,000 acres?

Mr. Goss. Yes.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. And these people who were talking here to-day about paying as much as $1 a head per year are paying enough, you think?

Mr. Goss. Yes; from my experience in the forest reserve, that is enough, because there are absolutely so many things to consider. They are there for only a short time. They have got to move in and move out. And they are a long way from the railroad. And my experience is that the poison loss is a big item in the forest reserve in this vicinity.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, some of these people were speaking of conditions where they grazed the year around.

Mr. Goss. Yes, sir.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. They still are handicapped in many ways in which you are not, I take it?

Mr. Goss. Yes, sir. Well, they have hay ranches, where they feed a good deal of hay, I have an idea. I don't feed any hay at all. Senator JONES of New Mexico. And you think that the advantages which you have justify the payment of the additional amount?

Mr. Goss. Yes, sir; I do. I have grazed on the forest reserve, but

not for 10 years.

Senator CAMERON. You do not have very much summer gathering of your cattle, do you?

Mr. Goss. No.

Senator CAMERON. They are all under fence?

Mr. Goss. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. You can have your own bulls, such classes as you want, and raise such classes of stock as you want?

Mr. Goss. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. That is a big advantage, isn't is?

Mr. Goss. When I am getting ready to ship my cattle I go out and work one man a week and we get all our cattle in one pasture, just the two of us. They are in close to the railroad, and when we get ready to ship, why we load them right there. It is only a half a day's job.

Senator CAMERON. How do you feel about a lease law on the unrestricted public domain?

Mr. Goss. Well, I would not favor it. I do not think with what public domain is left that a man could afford to lease it. I don't believe that any man could afford to lease it at all, that it is worth it. The best land was homesteaded, and then the State came along and took the next choice land, all the level land, and practically all the unappropriated domain that there is left is rough, rocky land which has absolutely very little value. That is my opinion about it. However, I know of very little public domain in this country, very little.

Mr. BOWDEN. Over what area do you apply your remarks relative to the condition of the public domain?

Mr. Goss. Well, I would say three or four counties.

Mr. BOWDEN. In what portion of the State?

Mr. Goss. In the southeastern part of the State.

Mr. BOWDEN. Will you give your opinion on the proposal to lease the forest reserve on an area basis under

that under which you lease privately owned land?

system similar to

Mr. Goss. Well, I do not see any serious objection to the system they have on the forest reserve now. What dealings I have ever had with the Forest Service were very satisfactory, and I do not think it would improve on it at all.

Mr. BOWDEN. It would give more control to the man who was running the livestock, would it not?

Mr. Goss. Well, possibly it would, but under the present rulings I think he has control enough. There may be some localities where it is not properly handled, but on all the forests that I know anything about they are getting along very nicely. I do not see any reason for leasing it. I hardly think that it would be a good thing. Senator CAMERON. Any more questions?

Mr. BOWDEN. That is all.

Senator CAMERON. Thank you. Mr. Goss. Mr. Billington.

STATEMENT OF W. H. BILLINGTON, PUEBLO, COLO., STOCK RAISER Senator CAMERON (presiding). Mr. Billington, will you give your full name, your address, and occupation to the reporter?

Mr. BILLINGTON. W. H. Billington, Pueblo, Colo., stock raiser. Senator CAMERON. Mr. Billington, have you a statement you would like to make to the committee?

Mr. BILLINGTON. I have not.

Senator CAMERON. Are you a permittee on the forest reserve? Mr. BILLINGTON. I am; yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. On which forest reserve?

Mr. BILLINGTON. In the San Isabel National Forest.

Senator CAMERON. How large a permit have you?

Mr. BILLINGTON. A hundred head.

Senator CAMERON. How long have you been on the forest reserve? Mr. BILLINGTON. About 15 years.

Senator CAMERON. You were in the stock business before the forest reserve was established?

Mr. BILLINGTON. Yes, sir; in 1886, off and on.

Senator CAMERON. You are an old-timer in the country, then?
Mr. BILLINGTON. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Have you any suggestions or complaints you care to make to this committee relative to the administration of the forest reserves?

Mr. BILLINGTON. I have no complaint to make against the forest, because I think as far as we are concerned we are very well treated. But I believe there are changes that would be beneficial to the people who live adjoining the forest reserve.

Senator CAMERON. Will you give the committee the benefit of that!

Mr. BILLINGTON. Now, for illustration, most of the land that is of any value in the forest reserve along streams have already been taken up and homesteaded and used for farming purposes or running cattle on the forest reserve. The thing that occurs to my mind is this: That if a permit was given to stabilize his business, so that he would be sure that he was going to have his permit issued each year for, say, a period of 10 years, he could better regulate his business as a cattle raiser than he can under the present conditions. Now, in another respect I think that the people who are around and are located in the forest reserve should have the first rights to the reserve range up to the number of cattle that the range is

able to carry.

I can see where it is a great injustice on some of these people who are depending on the forest reserve to allow outsiders to ship in a lot of cattle and eat up the little grass that they may be preserving for fall and winter. Now, you take an elevation of 7,000 feet and up, the man who raises a little hay works under disadvantages at all times on account of the rainy season and short crops. At 7.000 feet if he gets over two crops of alfalfa a year—which is the staple crop-that is about the limit. He has got to have an unusual season to get a little on the third.

Now, I will illustrate my own situation, if you wish.

Senator CAMERON. Go ahead, we would be glad to hear from you

about it.

Mr. BILLINGTON. My range is surrounded by the forest reserve, at an elev ation from 6,100 to 7,000 feet. We raise no native hay and get two crops of alfalfa. Well, now, if the range on the outside was taken care of and a certain number of cattle that is what these people complain of that if they can range to the latter part of the year they can take care of more cattle than they can if they have to supply feed all winter. It is an unusual winter where a man does not have to start feeding in November or feed through until April. He can not carry a very large herd of cattle to make it pay if he has to do that without having some protection on the outside.

Now, my judgment would be that the leasing of land, of a certain area, would be a good adjunct to the cattle raiser to a certain extent. In the district that I am there has been little if any partiality shown. We have not had the trouble that some of these other cattlewhat in their judgment the range would carry. men have had. And permits are issued up to the amount of about

Speaking of forest reserve, it covers a very wide range. Now, take it in the district where some of these gentlemen are ranging, they may be able to run a head of stock on 4 or 5 acres. Take it in the location where I am, I think it takes 50 acres.

And ours is a

very rough section of the country. It takes a lot of land for a very few cattle.

Now, if I was to make the statement that I own 2,500 acres of deeded land to the ordinary individual that would sound big. But out of that 2,500 acres I possibly have level land of five or six hundred or a thousand acres. And lots of that is untillable.

Now, with that large piece of ground and with the permit that we have of 100 head it is pretty hard to break even and run 250 head of cattle on account of the seasons and the range situation.

Another thing that would appear to me would be in line in the particular district that I am in, that some of the money from the rentals should be put back to reseed these hills that we have. Now, you take a heavy growth of timber and it might be on say 5,000 acres of ground. The amount of actual grazing in that 5,000 acres is very small, because you can take under a pine tree for a radius say of 50 or 100 feet around, that the needles have been dropping on that ground so many years that nothing grows. It is covered and all the grazing they get is out on the edges.

up,

So that one who is not quite familiar with the situation would say, "Well, now, here are 10,000 acres of grazing land," and they would think that that ought to carry a good many cattle, when as a matter of fact two or three hundred head would be ample to take care of all that was there, and it would be eaten off in the early part of the year.

Now, we can not run in our locality cattle in the wintertime. That is the range that I have the right to run on. Our cattle commence just as soon as the snow commences to fly; the range is pretty well eaten down, and say this hundred head that we have, why they commence to drift in. We have to feed them from the 1st to the 15th of October. And we are limited to just that amount of cattleto the amount of hay that we can raise. Well, it takes about two tons of hays to take care of a creature during the winter under ordinary conditions.

I want to say a word for the forester in our district. The forester in my judgment is a man that has got to be a darn good politician, because he is there to please everybody that is connected with the grazing of cattle in a district. And while you can go and make a complaint to the forester, he must be governed to a great degree by the sentiment in that particular locality. In fact, if he did not he would get the stock raisers down on him, and the first thing you know, why Washington would be flooded with a lot of letters. Well, we have found in our locality there that he has been very fair, not only to the very smallest, but he never has given the larger one any the best of it.

I do think, though, that the forest reserve should be preserved to a great degree for the people who have located there, and that their permit should be considered as a part of their investment, and that if they any time dispose of their property, that that permit should go with the property. Now, when I started in to get a permit they gave me a very small one. And through the number of years as some of them dropped out, which quite a number have in the last three or four years, they have permitted me to put on a few more cattle, until I have got to be up to the 100 head, which is the limit.