Mr. ERHART. Yes; I think in our particular case that they should. Senator JONES of New Mexico. How about turning it over to the State? Mr. ERHART. NO; I would not want to see it turned over to the State. Senator JONES of New Mexico. The State charges you too much rent, does it not? Mr. ERHART. NO; I don't think the State would charge for that particular amount very much more. They might charge a little more. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, why not turn it over to the State, then? Mr. ERHART. Well, it might be all right for a small amount, but I would not want to see all of the public land turned over to the State. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Why not? be Mr. ERHART. Because it would create a political machine. I may wrong. That is just my personal opinion. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, I have heard it said that there is a good deal of politics in the handling of it as it is now. Mr. ERHART. Well, there may be. But, frankly, I do not believe there is as much politics in it now as there would be if the State handled it. Senator CAMERON. How do you feel about a lease law? Mr. ERHART. Well, I believe a lease law would be all right. Senator JONES of New Mexico. That is provided you could get the lease? Mr. ERHART. Well, if I get a lease enough to run my cattle that I have now, why, I would be satisfied. Senator CAMERON. Is that all, Senator? Senator JONES of New Mexico. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you an advisory board in your portion of the forest reserve? Mr. ERHART. We have an advisory board in our association. Mr. ERHART. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. How often does the advisory board meet? Mr. ERHART. Oh, two or three times a year. Just meet when something special comes up. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you meet with the forest supervisor or an assistant? Mr. ERHART. Well, we have met with the forest supervisor. I think about every time we met we have met with the forest super visor. Mr. BOWDEN. Does your board adopt any resolutions relative to the time that you are to go on the range? Mr. ERHART. We have that with reference to sheep. Mr. BOWDEN. Have those resolutions been followed by the Forest Service? Mr. ERHART. They have in one part of the forest reserve, and in another part they were not followed. Mr. BOWDEN. Do the Forest Service officers refer matters of forest policy to the advisory board in order to get the opinion of the advisory board? Mr. ERHART. Well, they do sometimes. Mr. BOWDEN. Is the advice of the advisory board followed by the Forest Service officers? Mr. ERHART. No; not altogether. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you feel that as a forest reserve permittee you have sufficient voice in the handling of the range which you are paying for? Mr. ERHART. No, I do not. I could cite you one instance where we drew up a resolution and asked the Forest Service to enforce it because we thought that they were in a position to do it. It was in the matter of bulls. And we had a resolution to run pure blood registered white-faced bulls, and we asked the Forest Service to enforce this rule because we felt they could do it in issuing their permits, but when it came to issuing their permits they did not do it. They let some cattle on there without any bulls whatever, and some with mongrel bulls, and it works a hardship on men that do buy good bulls. They are trying to build up a herd, and some mongrel bull will tear down what you are trying to build up. Mr. BOWDEN. Has the Forest Service expended any money in developing water or in fencing or in otherwise improving the range for grazing purposes? Mr. ERHART. No, sir; not in our locality. Mr. BOWDEN. How large a permit have you? Mr. ERHART. One hundred and thirty-two head. Mr. BOWDEN. What is the protective limit in your district? Mr. ERHART. I am not prepared to say. Mr. BOWDEN. What is the maximum for class A users? Mr. ERHART. The maximum for the range? Mr. BOWDEN. Yes; for class A users. Mr. ERHART. Well, I believe 100 head. Mr. BOWDEN. And any one over that is liable to be cut in order to give additional range to the class A users who are under the protective limit? Mr. ERHART. I believe that is their policy. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any large permittees in your neighborhood? Mr. ERHART. No; we have not. Mr. BOWDEN. All small? Mr. ERHART. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. What would be the average size of permits? Mr. ERHART. Well, I believe about 40 head. Mr. BOWDEN. Would you be in favor of Congress passing a law directing the Secretary of Agriculture to lease areas in the forest reserve to stockmen for grazing purposes? Mr. ERHART. That would depend on what size the area was whether I would or not. Mr. BOWDEN. In making these leases should the Secretary of Agriculture recognize present preferences and issue leases according to the distribution of the range at the present time? Mr. ERHART. I think that would be fair. Mr. BOWDEN. Under the area basis who should control the grazing on that range, the lessee or the forest supervisor? Mr. ERHART. Well, I believe the permittee should control it. Because he is not going to overstock that. That is, if he has got it for a term of years. He would be foolish to overstock that because it would be a detriment to himself. Mr. BOWDEN. In the event that by proper grazing the carrying capacity of the range was increased, who should be allowed to put on the additional livestock, the lessee? Mr. ERHART. Well, I think if he has gone to the trouble of fencing this and built it up that he should be allowed to have the advantage of that. Mr. BOWDEN. That would be an incentive toward proper grazing, would it not? Mr. ERHART. Yes, sir. Senator JONES of New Mexico. How many permittees are there in your vicinity? Mr. ERHART. I think about 14. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Would those 14 people have any difficulty in dividing up the forest reserve so as to give each one an exclusive control of a portion of it? Mr. ERHART. Well, they might have some, but I believe it could be ironed out all right. Of course it is pretty hard to get 14 men together to agree right away, but they usually can. Senator JONES of New Mexico. How about the watering places? Mr. ERHART. Well, that would have to be worked out. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Are there unclaimed watering places there in abundance? Mr. ERHART. No; I would not say in abundance, but there are ample watering places, and more could be developed." Senator JONES of New Mexico. How far away from the private lands are the farthest of the forest reserve lands which your people are occupying? Mr. ERHART. I should say 30 miles. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Thirty miles? Mr. ERHART. Well, not on an airline, but the way we have to go. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Yes. Well, now, who would be willing to take that portion of the land 30 miles away? Mr. ERHART. I would. Senator JONES of New Mexico. And give up the lands nearer to you? Mr. ERHART. Yes, sir; I would be glad to do that. Senator JONES of Mexico. Provided you could get how much? Mr. ERHART. Well, if they would grant me three or four thousand acres, something like that. Senator JONES of New Mexico. You think three or four thousand acres would be a reasonable-sized unit for operation in that country? Mr. ERHART. Well, the particular piece of land that I have in mind would. Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, what about the piece of land next to that which you have in mind? Mr. ERHART. Well, probably it would not be quite so good. But I was just saying that I would be willing to take Senator JONES of New Mexico. To take the piece of land which you have in mind? Mr. ERHART. Yes. Senator JONES of New Mexico. But how about the rest of it? Who would you get to take the rest of it? Mr. ERHART. Well, there is lots of good range there. And if it was all fenced it could be developed into an ideal cattle range. Mr. BOWDEN. What would you think of the idea of the issuance of a community lease to the present users of that range? Mr. ERHART. All of them use it together? Mr. BOWDEN. Of that district; yes. Mr. ERHART. I don't believe I would like that idea. Mr. BOWDEN. You would rather have individual leases? Senator CAMERON (presiding). Mr. Goss, will you give your full name, your residence, and your occupation to the reporter. Mr. Goss. J. W. Goss, Pueblo. I am in the cattle business. Senator CAMERON. Mr. Goss, have you a statement that you would like to make to the committee? Mr. Goss. Well, as president of the local association, I have a resolution to present. Senator CAMERON. Go ahead, Mr. Goss. Mr. Goss (reading): Resolved, That the Pueblo County Stockgrowers Association opposes any legislation tending to transfer any lands, privileges, or rights thereto from the supervision of the Department of Agriculture to the Department of the Interior, and that the Pueblo County Association indorses the action of the Colorado Stockgrowers Association at its annual convention in Denver in which it recommends that all agricultural lands and rights and privileges pertaining thereto be administered by the United States Department of Agriculture. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you a user of the national forest? Mr. BOWDEN. That resolution which you just read was adopted by what association? Mr. Goss. The Pueblo County Stockgrowers Association, of which I am president. Mr. BOWDEN. How many members has that association? Mr. Goss. About 40 members. Mr. BOWDEN. Are they users of the national forest? Mr. Goss. Well, partly. Not a great many of them. Mr. BOWDEN. Do a number of them use the public domain? Mr. Goss. A number of them use private lands, and some of them are forest-reserve permittees. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you in the stock business? Mr. Goss. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. What branch of the industry? Mr. Goss. Cattle. Mr. BOWDEN. And you graze on the public domain? Mr. Goss. No, sir, on private lands entirely. Mr. BOWDEN. On private lands? Mr. Goss. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Are they leased lands or lands that you own? Mr. Goss. Leased lands, yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. What terms do you get on leasing privately-owned lands, as regards length of your lease? Mr. Goss. Well, I am just leasing from one year to another; one year at a time. Mr. BOWDEN. Annual leases? Mr. Goss. Annual leases. Mr. BOWDEN. Any provision for renewal in those leases? Mr. Goss. No, just a verbal understanding. Nothing in the lease that says anything about that. Mr. BOWDEN. Are there any restrictions in your lease as to how you are to graze that land? Mr. Goss. Yes, sir, there are. Mr. BOWDEN. Can you in a general way state what those restrictions are? Mr. Goss. Well, they bind me not to overgraze the land. Of course, if I did I would lose the lease. Senator CAMERON. You would not do that anyhow, would you? Mr. Goss. Well, a man is tempted to do that when he is short of feed; some of them do. Senator CAMERON. But when you expect to make this your business you would not, as a good stockman, overgraze it? Mr. Goss. Well, that is not good business. Mr. BOWDEN. What supervision does your lessor exercise over the use of your land that you lease? Mr. Goss. Well, he probably comes around once or twice a year and looks over it. Mr. BOWDEN. Does he issue instructions as to where you are to salt your cattle? Mr. Goss. No, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Does he tell you what time you can go on the range? Mr. Goss. No, sir, I handle the pasture entirely to suit myself. Mr. BOWDEN. Does he issue any instructions as to what kind of bulls you are to run? Mr. Goss. No, sir. Mr. BOWDEN, What is the condition of the forage on this land that you lease? Mr. Goss. Well, it is gramma grass mainly. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you overgrazing? Mr. Goss. Overgrazing, no sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you know of any other privately-owned lands that are leased for grazing in the part of the State in which you live? Mr. Goss, Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you know the conditions under which they are leased? Mr. GROSS. Well, yes; there is State land adjoining me that I am familiar with. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you familiar with the terms of the State lease? Mr. Goss. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. What supervision does the State exercise over the lands that it leases? Mr. Goss. Well, they are not very strict. The bind a man not to cut any timber. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you familiar with the supervision exercised by the Forest Service over the lands that are grazed within the forest reserve? |