Mr. BOWDEN. Now, who do you think should have control over the grazing of that area? You or the Forest Service officials in

charge of the forest reserve?

Mr. LEWIS. I believe that the Forest Service officials and the permittees in joint conferences should settle their differences in regard to the control of the forest reserve.

Mr. BOWDEN. What form of machinery would you set up in order that the control might be joint?

Mr. LEWIS. The form of machinery that the Colorado Stock Growers' Association indorsed in the form of the Phipps bill as amended would probably cover the situation.

Senator CAMERON. That will be all, Mr. Lewis; thank you. Mr. Mell De Witt.

STATEMENT OF MELL DE WITT, BUENA VISTA, COLO., CATTLE RAISER

Senator CAMERON (presiding). Mr. De Witt, will you give your full name and your address and your occupation to the reporter, please?

Mr. DE WITT. Mell De Witt, Buena Vista, Colo. Occupation, cattle business.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. De Witt, have you a statement you would like to make to the committee?

Mr. DE WITT. No; I have not.

Senator CAMERON. Are you a permittee on any forest reserve? Mr. DE WITT. Yes, sir; Leadville National Forest.

Senator CAMERON. How many head of cattle have you a permit for?

Mr. DE WITT. Three hundred and fifty head.

Senator CAMERON. How long have you been a permittee on the forest reserve?

Mr. DE WITT. Since 1898.

Senator CAMERON. How long have you been in the cattle business?
Mr. DE WITT. Well, since 1879. I was just a boy at that time.
Senator CAMERON. Have been in the cattle business ever since?
Mr. DE WITT. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Have you any complaints to make to this committee, or any recommendations you would like to make?

Mr. DE WITT. There is only one I would like to refer to, and that is that in our district I do not think we have been treated fairly in regard to unpermitted cattle being allowed to run at large on the reserve. While we have been protecting our permits and paying fees for the use of a part of the reserve unpermitted cattle have been allowed to graze there for several years that have eaten up the grass that we were paying for. And in that we feel that we have not been treated just right.

Senator CAMERON. Are the cattle you refer to also running on the public domain?

Mr. DE WITT. Yes; adjacent to the forest reserve.

Senator CAMERON. They haven't any permit on the forest re

serve?

43213-25-PT 12- 3

Mr. DE WITT. No; they haven't any permit on the forest reserve. Senator CAMERON. It is pretty hard now to get a permit on the forest reserve, is it not?

Mr. DE WITT. Why, no; it doesn't seem so. It seems to me, from what I have seen, that anybody asking for a permit can get on. I mean the home people. I don't know how it is for others.

Senator CAMERON. In most of the States where we have been holding hearings the forest-reserve permits have been pretty well taken up, and I was wondering if you had that same condition here? Mr. DE WITT. Well, I don't think so.

Senator CAMERON. Any one that comes along now with a bunch of cattle can get a permit?

Mr. DE WITT. Yes, sir; it seems that way. It has been that way, Senator.

Senator CAMERON. He has to have some location outside?
Mr. DE WITT. Oh, yes; he has to be located.

Senator CAMERON. He has to be permanently located in the State?
Mr. DE WITT. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. Any questions?

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Why do not those people who have those range cattle on the outside get a permit?

Mr. DE WITT. Well, there was one case that the Forest Service refused them a permit; in one particular affair we had we were asked by the Forest Service to move our cattle back off from the winter ranges up onto the summer ranges and hold them there during the summer season more than we were doing at the time. You understand, this is a year-around proposition; our cattle run on this range the year around. And we asked the Forest Service if they would protect us if we moved this cattle off and would not allow any of them from the outside to come in and eat up these ranges that we were protecting for winter range, which they promised to do. At the same time that season after we did this a party brought in a thousand head of cattle and turned them loose right at the edge of the forest reserve, and part of them on the forest reserve, which they would all go back across, you understand, drifting from the range they were taken to. We asked that those cattle be removed, which they did not do. They remained there two months, and finally they brought a damage suit against the parties and settled with them for $150. The fees we were paying would be 20 cents a head for the four months during the winter; that would have made $200 for this party to have paid if he had paid the same permit fee that we were paying and the cattle still continued to stay there.

Then they did not allow them a permit for those cattle the next season, but part of the cattle were moved up the river and they drifted back, and consequently those cattle have been on that range ever since. A big portion of those cattle are on the range to-day. They will not allow a permit for that band of cattle right now, to-day, and they say that they will not allow them to be there, but the cattle are there. Now, that is what we want to have the Forest Service do, if they have control of that matter-to relieve that situation so that we get the benefit of the grazing that we have been paying for.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. How large is that forest reserve?

Mr. DE WITT. That forest reserve is about 6 miles wide; this particular place that I speak of, 6 to 8 miles wide-6 miles in places, some places wider, and about 18 miles long.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, it is quite difficult, is it not, to control that kind of a forest reserve without fencing it?

Mr. DE WITT. Yes; it is. It is pretty hard to. It is a rough country, a very rough country.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Six miles is not very far for cattle to travel.

Mr. DE WITT. Not each way. The river makes a part of the boundary on one side, and then it is an imaginary line on the east side.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. It that a heavily timbered forest reserve?

Mr. DE WITT. No; it is not. It is very thin timber. Nothing to speak of.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. What water source does it preserve or protect?

Mr. DE WITT. Well, it protects quite a water reserve. It is pretty high in quite a lot of those places, especially in the Buffalo Peaks country it is way above the timber line, and lots of snow falls, and it protects lots of watersheds. The other area is not so big. It has an altitude of 9,000 feet high, and there is considerable snow that lies in there during the winter, and it causes some water, but the land lying west of it, the way the water would naturally fall, is a very sandy, rocky soil, and consequently that water does not get into the river and flow down. It just goes into the ground where it is. And it makes pretty good grass in the summer season.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Why should that land be kept within the forest reserve?

Mr. DE WITT. Well, gentlemen, I don't know. When that was laid out they came down to what they called the third correction line. There is just as much timber, just as good ground and watersheds south of that third correction line as north of it which they took in. On part of the line that they took in they had to haul poles a mile and a half to set the corners, but later on we made such a complaint about that that they withdrew the land that was only open prairie country and put the line back next to the mountain.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Is this forest reserve fenced?
Mr. DE WITT. No; there is no fence on it at all.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. De Witt, what do you pay a head for ranging cattle on there?

Mr. DE WITT. We pay 80 cents a head commencing on the 15th of April and expiring on the 15th of December. Then we pay 20 cents a head for the four months during the winter, making $1 a head the year around.

Senator CAMERON. Can many of your cattle graze on the forest reserve during the winter months?

Mr. DE WITT. Yes; a part, and a part on the public domain.
Senator CAMERON. And you are paying then $1 a year?

Mr. DE WITT. Yes; we are paying $1 a year. I have 1,400 acres of deeded land that lies in the forest reserve.

Senator CAMERON. Did you have that land prior to the creation of the forest reserve?

Mr. DE WITT. Yes; that was taken up a good many years before the forest reserve was created. You see, a part of the forest reserve that I speak of, on which I had a permit in 1898, was what we call the South Platte reserve, which did not extend over to where it is now. Later on the rest of it in this other country was thrown in, and that was somewhere in 1900, I think, or after 1900. And this land I had taken up a good many years before.

Senator CAMERON. How do you feel about turning the unreserved public domain back to the States? Have you any opinion on that? Mr. DE WITT. Well, I am in favor of leaving the public domain just as it is. And until such time as the Forest Department or any other department that can handle it properly will give us, so that we know what we can do on it. So that we can be protected against any trespassing or anything like that, or the fees are such that the stockmen can live and be sure that they will have something for a few years to go on.

Senator CAMERON. What is the tenure of your present permit?
Mr. DE WITT. One year.

Senator CAMERON. How would you feel about a 10-year lease or permit?

Mr. De WITT. The 10-year lease is all right, we would be glad to have it, providing the fees can be established so that we would not have to guarantee that we would have to pay at the end of say 4 or 5 years a larger fee for that. That we would not want to sign up for 10 years, and then give them the privilege of charging us $3 a head, which they seem to be talking about, at the end of so many years, and still make us hold that permit.

Senator CAMERON. If there was a stipulated price per head-
Mr. De WITT. That would be reasonable.

Senator CAMERON. If there was a stipulated price per head in the lease would it not be better all around for the cattle industry or the stockmen?

Mr. De WITT. It would in our district. We would like that. Where we have this winter range and summer range together, you understand, where we have it the year around.

Senator CAMERON. Well, there are very few ranges like yours in Colorado?

Mr. De WITT. So I understand. I don't know of any more where it is that way.

Senator CAMERON. Most of them are summer ranges?

Mr. De WITT. Mostly summer range, yes.

Senator CAMERON. For a few months!

Mr. De WITT. Yes; for a few months. Now I don't mean to say that all our range is that way. We have a range high up in the mountains, and that I think runs from the 15th of May until the 15th of November or October, or some time like that. It is a different range. I don't know just what the rate is on that.

Senator CAMERON. What do you pay for that range?

Mr. De WITT. I couldn't tell you just exactly what the boys do pay on that side.

Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. De Witt. Now we will have one more witness before we have our recess for lunch. Mr. Fehling.

STATEMENT OF FRANK FEHLING, LATHROP, COLO., CATTLE RAISER

Senator CAMERON (presiding). Mr. Fehling, will you give your full name and your business and your location to the reporter? Mr. FEHLING. Frank Fehling, Lathrop, Colo. Stockraising.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Fehling, have you a statement that you would like to make?

Mr. FEHLING. No, sir; I have not.

Senator CAMERON. Are you a permittee on the forest reserve? Mr. FEHLING. I am.

Senator CAMERON. On what forest reserve?

Mr. FEHLING. Leadville National Forest.

Senator CAMERON. How many head of cattle have you a permit for?

Mr. FEHLING. One-hundred and twenty-five head of cattle.

Senator CAMERON. How long have you been a permittee on the forest reserve?

Mr. FEHLING. Ever since there was a reserve there.

Senator CAMERON. Were you in the cattle business before the forest reserve was established?

Mr. FEHLING. I was.

Senator CAMERON. Have you any grievances or recommendations to present or offer to this committee?

Mr. FEHLING. I think Mr. De Witt covered practically all of that. My main objection is that we have no protection on the forest reserve. I happen to run on practically the same range that Mr. De Witt does. Although I run it farther south, toward the third correction line where this reserve ends. And as he said, we pay for a permit, and run our cattle on the reserve, and cattle just off of this third correction line are run on the reserve the same as our cattle do, and pay no permit fee.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Do your cattle run on the outside as well as inside?

Mr. FEHLING. Yes; we have, I should judge, about 50 per cent forest reserve and 50 per cent public domain.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, in the case of those people who have cattle on the outside that get over on the inside, what is to keep the cattle from getting on the inside?

Mr. FEHLING. Not a thing in the world. Nothing.

Senator CAMERON. They practically have the same access to your range that you have yourself, do they not?

Mr. FEHLING. Just exactly.

Senator CAMERON. And you are paying a fee of $1 a head?

Mr. FEHLING. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. And they are not paying anything?

Mr. FEHLING. No, sir.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, do they not insist that you are running your cattle on their range as a part of the public

domain?

Mr. FEHLING. Well, yes; I suppose so, although I think my places are closer to the public domain than they are.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Are they between you and the forest reserve?