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wintertime I generally use the western part of the range, because my sheep go to the Wyoming and Teton Forests.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any rule to prevent crowding among the stockholders?


The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any trouble?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. No; no trouble whatsoever. I have never known of a complaint, and, as I say, I am the attorney and the secretary. I have never known of any real complaint ever made.

Mr. BOWDEN. There has been no court action?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. No court action. No trouble of any sort, kind, or description.

Mr. BOWDEN. No taking of any permit away from any of the permittees ?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. Not a single one. There has only been one original stockholder that refuses to pay for his permit when it ends. The CHAIRMAN. How many permittees did you say there were there?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. I think there are about 30 permittees. And the 30 permittees own from 85 to 90 bands of sheep of the maximum number to the band of 3,500 head.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any cattle permittees? Are they all sheep?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. There are no permits issued for cattle. There are many cattlemen not sheepmen within the area owned by the Rock Springs Grazing Association, and who graze their cattle and horses upon these lands without let or hindrance by the Rock Springs Grazing Association.

Mr. BOWDEN. Are the lands that are owned by the Rock Springs Grazing Association lands that were bought from the Union Pacific Railroad Company?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. All of the lands owned by the Rock Springs Grazing Association were lands originally in the Union Pacific land grant. Some of them were bought by purchasers from the Union Pacific.

The CHAIRMAN. Are those checkerboard lands?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. All checkerboard lands, odd sections.

Mr. BOWDEN. Does the ownership of these odd sections give the Association control over the Government sections lying between?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. Incindentally it does give some control for this reason: Not because the Rock Springs Grazing Association exercises any control whatsoever over the public domain. We realizeI would like to have this go into the record-that any one that attempts to prevent the free and untrammeled use of the public domain, whether 3 miles from the National Forest or otherwise, is guilty of violation of a Federal statute. It makes no difference whether he is a forest supervisor or who he is. We understand that. Leavenworth is where he would probably land.

To catch up the thread of what I was going to say, we exercise no authority or dominion over the public domain. Still a flock master seeking to use the Government sections can not justify himself by going on the lands owned by the Rock Springs Grazing Association in so doing.

The Federal courts in several cases, as well as the circuit court of appeals for the eighth circuit, and incidentally the Supreme Court of the United States in several cases, have so decided. So the result is that the Federal Government finds itself in its even-numbered sections confronted with land-locked land. A matter of their own doing in making the land grant in this checkerboard shape.

Mr. BOWDEN. Then is it true that this entire area in which the lands of the association are situated is used by the members of the association and the members of the association only?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. No, sir; I have stated exactly the contrary. I have stated that we make no objection, protest or otherwise, to as many cattle as are brought upon these lands.

Mr. BOWDEN. Who owns those cattle and horses that you speak of? Mr. TALIAFERRO. Very few, if any, of the members of the Rock Springs Grazing Association.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do their owners live within this area?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. Oh, a good many of them; yes. And some of them live outside of it.

Mr. BOWDEN. Then there is grazing on this area other than grazing by members of the association?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. Yes, sir. We pay no attention except to that class of livestock that is controlled by human intellect.

The CHAIRMAN. Herded?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. Herded. Livestock are using their own instincts seeking their own food. We make no objection. But if a Utah flock master comes and herds his livestock purposely upon the oddnumbered sections, or if he comes and says that he is trying to seek the Government sections, and trespasses upon our sections, the Rock Springs Grazing Association sections, the Federal courts have said that we are entitled to damages. But we are not entitled to put

him off.

The CHAIRMAN. You are entitled to damage for trespass on the privately owned land?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. We are entitled to damage for trespass on the privately owned land. The case of Mackay v. The Rock Springs Grazing Association and Mulford v. The Rock Springs Grazing Association, reported in the Federal Reporter in the Eighth Circuit will illuminate you upon that phase of the question. I just put that in so if the committee cares to look it up they will have the reference

to it.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all, Mr. Taliaferro, thank you. Mr. Hay. STATEMENT OF J. W. HAY, STOCK RAISER, ROCK SPRINGS, WYO.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hay, will you give your name and address to the reporter?

Mr. HAY. J. W. Hay, Rock Springs.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hay, are you engaged in the livestock busi


Mr. HAY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been engaged in the livestock


Mr. HAY. Thirty years.

The CHAIRMAN. In the State of Wyoming?

Mr. HAY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you graze within the confines of the national forests?

Mr. HAY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you graze upon the public domain?

Mr. HAY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. In what national forest do you graze?
Mr. HAY. Bridger.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hay, have you a statement that you will make to this committee in your own way?

Mr. HAY. No; not at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hay, do you or do you not believe that Congress should enact a law legalizing the right to graze within the forest reserves?

Mr. HAY. I believe it would be a good thing that we have such a law.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you believe that such a law should provide for the setting up of some disinterested body for the purpose of arbitrating and settling and deciding irreconcilable controversies. that may arise between the users of the national forest and the Forest Service?

Mr. HAY. Generally speaking, I believe that we should get together and thresh out our own affairs as much as possible with the Forest Service people. And if we fail to agree and feel that we are injured, I believe that we should have the right to go into the local courts. There are many users of the forest reserve that are small users, and you haul them off four or five hundred miles to a Federal court and it is mighty expensive, and with some of them it is impossible to stand that expense. And I feel that every citizen should have the right to go into the local courts and let that be the final place to decide questions that we feel we might be injured in.

The CHAIRMAN. You think that the forest users are entitled to have their irreconcilable controversies with the Forest Service determined by a court rather than that such should be decided by one. of the interested parties to the controversy?

Mr. HAY. Well, I would like to add to that a local court, on account of the many men who are not able to stand the expense. If there was a little more authority given to the local officials on the ground, we being familiar with just what was wanted, I feel in most cases that we would be able to adjust the matters among ourselves. But where it drifts around and gets to the district forester, and from there to the Forester in Washington, and you get a great bunch of papers, and so many people passing on them, decisions are often made that I feel that if they were right on the ground and would see the true condition that we would adjust the matter without much trouble.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hay, do you favor the enactment of a law providing for the leasing of the public domain?

Mr. HAY. Absolutely opposed to it. I do not believe that any more. land should be taken over or set aside. As time rolls on we will gradually adjust the matter.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you believe that the fees charged for grazing on the forest reserves should be fixed by statute?

Mr. HAY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And do you believe that any receipts in excess of the cost of administration should in part or all be turned over to the Federal Treasury?

Mr. HAY. I believe there should nothing be turned over to the Federal Treasury from lands in the State of Wyoming. I believe that the actual cost of the stock using certain portions of the forest reserves should be the only charge made-for the administration of the forest.

In connection with that increase of grazing fees, I happened to be present at all the meetings during the time of the organization of the forest reserves, and the Use Book, and many other things that have been put out. At that time we were told that the forest reserves were created for the purpose of conserving timber. Later on there was a small charge made, and from time to time increased, and especially right in the very hard times when the livestock industry was just in the balance whether it would exist or not, and other agencies of the Government were being organized to save the livestock industry, such as the War Finance and the Federal land bankand if it had not been for those institutions, why there would have been a different story to tell here to-day.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hay, what do you mean? Do you mean that the condition would have been more serious than it is had it not been for those?

Mr. HAY. Very much more.

The CHAIRMAN. You believe that those organizations performed a valuable service to the people of the State of Wyoming?

Mr. HAY. I certainly do, but right in the face of that the Forest Service increased the grazing fees, which I opposed bitterly at the time. There should be some stability, and a man going in business should know about what he could depend on. If there is no stability, and if you don't know just what the charges are going to be, there - discontent. People become dissatisfied, and it often creates a feeling that I sometimes realize goes too far.

We have got along fairly well over here on this small forest that we use. There are not a great many users. In some cases there are arbitrary rules concerning movement of livestock, that I believe if we would get together and go over the matter with our local people, and they had the power, that those matters would adjust themselves. should be given to the users of the national forests? The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hay, do you believe that long terms of tenure

Mr. HAY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN, Would that tend to stabilize the livestock in


Mr. HAY. It will help if there is not a continual reduction and a change in allotments and other changes that often amount to but very little, but it upsets the business. There should be some stability and let the matter be handled as a man would handle his own private


The CHAIRMAN. Where it is possible and practical, do you believe permits or leases should be granted to certain

that permanent area

areas? What I mean by that is this: Where you have individual

allotments and where it has already been determined or where it may be determined that it is practical for a certain individual permittee to use that particular area, do you believe that he should have a long-time lease on that particular area?

Mr. HAY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Or do you believe that he should be subject to change at the will and caprice, if I may so use the word, of a forest supervisor?

Mr. HAY. I believe he should have the right to have a long-term permit and know that his business is stable. That he can move and operate.

The CHAIRMAN. If a permittee or lessee was granted that privilege, and could increase his herd or flock as he improved the grazing thereon, or his herd or flock would be decreased as he depreciated the grazing thereon, would it be an incentive for him to improve and conserve the forage growing upon his area allotment?

Mr. HAY. Why, he would naturally take better care of the property, and he would endeavor to increase the number of animals as far as possible. Now, you understand, Senator, that we only use these ranges a small part of the year. We are not grazing out here in this arid belt like a man would in a pasture where the stock runs the year around. We use the forest about 40 days, and we use the fall ranges between that and the period they come out of the forest until they go on to the winter range. Then we use the winter range until about shearing time, and then we move back to the fall range. Now, I have been here on these ranges for 30 years, and we have the best feed that we have ever had on this range--this winter range.

Some man going over our range in the spring of the year, why, he would say, if he was an arbitrary sort of a fellow, that this range is overstocked. Now, you might go out and look at it, if you come from a grazing country, and think there was nothing here now, but our range is primarily a brush range, sagebrush, salt sage, and such. and livestock thrive very well on it. The only thing we have to go up against, it is not overstocking, not overcrowding of a range. but if a deep snow comes and covers it all up, if we were not permitted to move around from place to place, and gradually work back as the snow leaves, we would have a very heavy loss, or we would have a very heavy expense in maintaining this stock with feed which we would have to ship in here.

The CHAIRMAN. In the 12-month cycle of grazing is the right to graze on the forest reserves an important factor, if not an essential one? By the 12-month cycle I mean the grazing arrangement that the user of a forest reserve has for the full year. You said that he grazes but a short time on a forest reserve. Is that an important link in that cycle of his year's operation?

Mr. HAY. Why, very important.

The CHAIRMAN. And if you were to be prohibited from the right to graze within the forest reserves would it affect the value of your ranch holdings?

Mr. HAY. Oh, yes; it would affect them very materially. Here would be the condition: Up here in our country we have very little water, and during the summer months most of the streams dry up. Now, if we were barred from the forest reserve and not able to use

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