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in the arid land States, and they decided that they wanted no further Federal control over the grazing lands and the arid lands of what you may call the Rocky Mountain and the Pacific Coast States.

With that explanation I will be glad to answer any questions. I particularly want this committee to recall to mind the wording of that resolution, the result of that convention, which can be obtained. If I had known about it in time I would have brought a copy of it and spread it upon your record.

The CHAIRMAN. We would be very glad to have that made a part of the record, Mr. Taliaferro.

Mr. TALIAFERRO. I think I can get that, Senator, and make it a part of my remarks.

The CHAIRMAN. If you will furnish it to the committee it will be incorporated in the record as a part of your remarks.

(The resolution referred to was subsequently submitted by the witness, and is here printed in full, as follows):

RESOLUTIONS AS REPORTED UNANIMOUSLY BY THE COMMITTEE ON RESOLUTIONS AND ADOPTED BY THE PUBLIC LANDS CONVENTION AT DENVER, COLO., JUNE 18, 19, AND 20, 1907

No. 1. We cordially indorse the active and successful efforts of the administration in the enforcement of the land laws of the country, and heartily approve the vigorous prosecution of all known violators of such laws.

No. 2. Experience has demonstrated the wisdom of the policy of treating the lands of the Nation as a public trust to be disposed of in all cases and wherever possible to actual settlers for cultivation and the making of homes. The people of the West are unalterably opposed to any change in this wholesome and beneficial policy.

No. 3. Forest reservations should be created only where they do not infringe this policy and do not withdraw and remove from actual settlement land suitable for settlement, cultivation, and the making of homes. Wherever created they should be devoted to the largest and freest use consistent with their preservation, so that no natural resources of any community shall be taken further than unavoidably necessary.

No. 4. In all cases the right of the States and of the people of the States to the free and unhampered use of all waters within forest reservations for the beneficial public uses of irrigation, municipal supply, and the development of power should not only be permitted but encouraged, and no charge should be imposed therefor or in connection therewith, leaving it to the States, by adequate regulation, to compel the furnishing of all such water and power to consumers and the public at the lowest possible cost.

No. 5. We recognize the necessity, where forest reservations are created. of the Government's making all such reasonable regulations as may be necessary to the preservation of the same and preventing conflicts in connection therewith. This Nation is to-day strong, great, and prosperous because of the wide distribution of its lands and the natural resources connected therewith among all of the people, and we ask only of our brethren in the East the application to us of the national policy they have wisely applied to their own interests, their own land, and their own resources, pledging them our united and best efforts to the end that under wholesome laws these valuable resources shall be kept from the monopolistic control of corporations or others, to the end that they shall be owned by, distributed among, and at reasonable rates, enjoyed by the whole people.

No. 6. Resolved, That we favor the prompt elimination from forest reservations of all land not timber or suitable for reforestation or reasonably neces sary to conserve the flow of streams used for irrigation in arid sections.

No. 7. Resolved, That we are opposed to any change in the existing laws and customs as to grazing of livestock upon the public domain outside of the forest reserves.

No. 8. The laws and the rules of the department should provide that agricultural lands situate within a forest reservation should be freely open to

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homestead entry and an actual settler should have the immediate, free, and unobstructed right of entry under the homestead laws applicable outside of forest reservations, and all of the presumptions of law indulged in favor of homestead entrymen outside of forest reservations should prevail in his favor and his entry sustained as to arable lands. Lands suitable for or immediately contiguous to reservoir sites or other natural resources of municipal water supply should not be disposed of for any purpose other than in aid of such supply. No. 9. We recommend that Congress shall provide by law that all evidence, reports, papers, files, and records in all cases or proceedings involving the right to the title or the occupancy or the possession of public lands or privileges thereon shall be public and open to inspection at all times, and shall also provide penalties for the suppression of any report or the making of any false report in connection with any such matter or proceeding.

No. 10. Whereas the purposes of this convention are to bring about the greatest possible development of the West; and'

Whereas there are 20,000,000 acres of allotted land in Indian Territory belonging to the allottees, which, under the present laws, can not be leased or disposed of except under the rules and regulations of the Interior Depart

ment: and

Whereas such lands can not be taxed for any purposes, and the question of taxation is a most important one in the development of the new State of Oklahoma: Therefore be it

Resolved, That we favor the immediate removal of the restrictions on the sale and lease of all allotted lands in Indian Territory, except the homesteads of full bloods, and that until an act of Congress has been passed providing for such alienation we earnestly request of the Secretary of the Interior the most liberal construction of the laws now in force, to the end that restrictions may be removed in individual cases under the authority given him by Congress for that purpose.

No. 11. Resolved, That we affirm the right of the several States to control the appropriation, use, and distribution for irrigation of the waters of all public nonnavigable streams within their respective borders, and that the act of Congress approved March 3, 1891, granting the right of way through and upon the public domain of the United States for ditches, canals, and reservoirs for the purpose of irrigation may be liberally construed, to the end that the construction of such canals and reservoirs should be encouraged.

No. 12. Resolved, That in view of the present urgent demand for coal in the interior States of the West we urge the executive department of the Government forthwith to modify any existing orders preventing bona fide filings on any of the public coal lands, and to permit such filings to be made and allow the same to proceed to patent upon such reasonable investigation as may be necessary to guard against fraud in the same.

No. 13. We rejoice in the passage of the national irrigation statute, and that under it the Nation has embarked upon the task of reclaiming the waste places to become the sites of fruitful farms and thrifty communities.

No. 14. The homestead settler is the first and most important beneficiary of our public-land system. Every effort should be made to encourage and protect the man who goes into the wilderness to carve out a habitation and a support for himself and his family. These pioneers are the forerunners of civilization and compose the sturdy citizenship of the Republic. In the administration of our public laws and in the making of new laws it must never be forgotten that the bona fide homestead settler is the central figure around which our public land system is and should continue to be maintained.

No. 15. Resolved, That we urge upon Congress the necessity of the enactment of a law that will empower the Secretary of Agriculture to appoint proper inspectors of the Forestry Service, who shall have power to summon witnesses, administer oaths, and take testimony in the investigations of any alleged wrongs in forest reserve management.

No. 16. Whereas there has been heretofore granted to the several States of the United States certain sections of public lands for common-school purposes in each of said States; and

Whereas in some of said States forest reserves have been established which have absorbed all of the lands of said States within said reserves; and

Whereas all remaining valuable public lands within said States have become reserved from sale or otherwise reserved or appropriated, so that no land remains from which said States may receive their apportionment as originally designed of lands to which said States would have become en43213-25-PT 11—6

titled but for the establishment of said forest reserves within said States: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That Congress legislate appropriately with respect to lands within said reserves within said States so that each State so deprived thereof may receive its full quota of lands or the equivalent therefor for the purposes for which the same were originally ceded.

No. 17. Resolved, That all inchoate rights initiated by any individual or State upon or pertaining to any of the public lands be recognized and protected by the Government, and that any such individual or State be permitted to perfect their or its title in keeping with the laws of the United States and the rules and regulations of the Department of the Interior and the General Land Office in force and existent at the time of the initiation of such rights, expressly excepting lieu land scrip.

No. 18. We believe that in justice to the people of the States wherein forest reserves are situated and are not desired and are excessive, the reservations should forthwith be reduced within reasonable limits, whether the land restored contains timber or not.

No. 19. We recommend that reports of special and secret service agents of the land department and of the Department of Agriculture shall be made under oath, and that Congress shall provide suitable penalties for false statements.

No. 20. Resolved, That the thanks of the convention are due to the Hon. Henry A. Buchtel, Governor of the State of Colorado, for his action and aid in convening this assembly of States, and to the several officers of the United States for their attendance and consideration of the subjects brought to its attention, and to the committee on program and amusements and the commercial bodies of the city of Denver for the courtesies extended and assistance afforded to the attending delegates, and the same are hereby heartily extended to all of them; that this convention desires to acknowledge with pleasure its cordial reception and welcome by the citizens of Denver and the courtesies shown by them and by the press.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Taliaferro, if, notwithstanding your expressed opposition to the general leasing law

Mr. TALIAFERRO. I have not expressed my opposition yet. What I have said had reference to the expression of the citizens of the public-lands States in convention assembled.

The CHAIRMAN. Then I will propound the question to you: Are you opposed to the enactment of any law providing for the leasing of the public domain?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. I am unalterably opposed to any further aggression on the part of the Federal Government within the limits of the State of Wyoming, the State in which I live, of any sort, kind, or character.

The CHAIRMAN. If, notwithstanding your opposition thereto, Congress should epact a law providing for the leasing of the public domain, what is the maximum rental that you think should be charged?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. I would go back to what the great expounder of the Constitution, Daniel Webster, said in answer to Robert Foote, of Connecticut, that constitutionally the Government had only one duty to perform with reference to the public domain, and that was to pass it to the actual citizens of the State in which it was located at the cost of administration, economically administered. Under no other condition would the cessions of the Northwest Territory by Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Virginia ever have been made. That was the full faith with which the United States entered into the administration of the public domain. In other words, there was an implied agreement on the part of the Federal Government that there should be no leasing, that there should be no commercializing, that the people of the United States should not profit from the public

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lands of a State, but that the position of the United States was simply that of a trustee and the cestui que trust were the people that settled within the confines of the State.

I refer to Bates upon the Foot resolution, in which Senator Foot-. I think it was in 1832-aided by Senator Pierre Soule, of Louisiana, was opposed by Daniel Webster and his afterwards companion Robert Y. Hayne, of South Carolina, Hayne and Webster taking the position that I have stated, as shown by the Congressional Globe, the then report of the debates of the United States. I think that was in 1832.

The CHAIRMAN. Has not that policy and theory of government been transgressed long since in the forest-reserve withdrawals?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. I think not. Self-preservation is the first law of nature. A principle of law which I think the officials of the Forest Service will admit, under which their administration exists, is that the watersheds in the national forests may be conserved for the benefit of the lands that lie beneath them. And I do not think it has been, if your honor pleases, transgressed. I look upon the national forest as a necessity, and I think that the general administration of the national forest has been one of conservation and of necessity.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you reconcile that statement with the fact that fees are being charged for the utilization of the resources of the areas withdrawn for the purpose of conserving timber and sources of water supply?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. It has been necessary, and of course is necessary, when vegetable life reaches maturity it shall be harvested. It is simply an incident. I think the statesmanship of Wyoming should in the very beginning have protested that any timber cut from the forest reserves or the revenues derived from any timber cut from the forest reserve should not be converted to any other use save, first, to pay the expenses of the trust, and, secondly, to be credited to the State of Wyoming for such purposes as the legislature of the State of Wyoming might memorialize Congress that it should be used for. I think that was clearly due to our State, and it was lost. sight of since the Civil War.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Taliaferro, going back to my question: If, notwithstanding the opposition that you have voiced here, which may be well founded, Congress should see otherwise and should enact a law providing for the leasing of the public domain for the purpose of grazing and utilizing the forage growing thereon, what, in your opinion, should be the maximum charge that could fairly and justly be imposed for that privilege?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. The cost of administering the trust economically operated.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Taliaferro, have you had any experience in using privately owned lands under a community lease?

Mr. TALIAFERRO. Yes, sir; I have had considerable experience. That is, I believe that the first enterprise in that direction was probably instituted by myself.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you tell this committee, for the benefit of the record, what that arrangement was made, and with whom, and the area involved?

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Mr. TALIAFERRO. Many years ago, probably 15 or 20, the Union Pacific decided to sell its land grant, or certain portions of it, from time to time, not to overcrowd the market by putting all of the land on the market at one time. The result was that some of my associates and myself organized a corporation known as the Rock Springs Grazing Association, in which it was mutually agreed in its charter that as these lands came up on the market that they would be purchased by this association or by certain individuals for and on behalf of the association.

A delegation from the proposed corporation-I do not believe it had been then incorporated--went to Omaha and conferred with the officials of the Union Pacific Railroad Co. and represented to those officials that this corporation was a mutual one, instituted for the use and benefit of the flockmasters of Sweetwater County residing between the station of Bitter Creek on the east and a point near Granger on the west, in length about 80 to 85 miles and in breadth about 40 miles.

The lands to be sold, of course, were the odd sections. That the Union Pacific Railroad would give to this association the first and prior right to purchase these lands as they were put upon the market. The contract has been consistently lived up to since its inception, which, as I say, was 20 years ago, until this corporation is now the owner of a territory about 85 miles east and west and 40 miles north and south. There are some little spots that are out of it, but that is the average area, containing about 3,000 square miles, and probably about 2,000,000 acres.

We have conserved by our rules and regulations the forage and verdure growing upon that area by restricting, as the Forest Service has done, the time in which livestock may graze it. Indeed, I believe the Forest Service has copied a good many of their activities, probably, from the Rock Springs Grazing Association.

The Union Pacific-and this is one point I wish to make plain here, because I see some of these Forest Service officials here, they are interested in it-the Union Pacific conceived at the time this was done that it was necessary it should reserve to shippers, people that sought to get to their transportation line what they called trails, and they did reserve them at various places. Here at Rock Springs north and south through the land grant; at Point of Rocks north; at Bitter Creek north and south.

We afterwards convinced the Union Pacific that the leasing of those trails was injurious to the livestock business if that enforced the livestock to confine themselves to those trains in going to and from the railroad, for the very reason that the trails had become denuded of all grass, or feed, to the damage of the livestock. So afterwards the Union Pacific turned the trails over to us. So that now if any one wants to pass through this strip of 80 or 90 miles east or west, or come to the railroad or cross north or south-the railroad running practically east and west-instead of restricting the livestock to a beaten trail, which the Forest Service does, and which is a perfectly foolish and nonsensical thing, they apply to the Rock Springs Grazing Association for a permit or permission to go across, stating the point that they want to enter and the point that they want to go off. The exit and the entry. Egress and ingress. For which we charge them a reasonable fee for the forage

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