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there ought to be some one to regulate the sheep and the cattlemen. Well, now, one of our best neighbors is a sheepman, and I have got a friend right here, Mr. Hadsell, we run together for years. And I just have got to tell a little joke on him. He is a pretty good fellow. We were over there on the mountain, and I used to run south of the river. I run now north of the river. One day we had some visitors, and one of them said, "Sheehan, let's go down and get a lamb and have a feast." We went down in a willow patch and got a lamb. And I want to show you how the cattlemen and the sheepmen get along together. And while we were coming up with the lamb we ran into some of his men who had gone down and stolen a fat yearling wether. We came up to the camp with the lamb, and in came his men with the yearling wether. Fine and dandy. We are still friends.

Now, another thing. Over at Lander is Billy Sherlock; he and my foreman were raised together. He has four bands of sheep, and he is one of the fellows that the Federal Bank hasn't got there. Now, he summers on the forest reserve a hundred miles from his holdings. He has every waterhole adjoining me. Our cattle run all over his waterholes. He would rather have them than not, rather than keep a renegate sheepman there. So we are getting along fine. He doesn't want any lease law. You see the idea. And it is that

way clear down the river.

I am satisfied I am voicing the sentiments of every cattleman on that river and sheepman for 100 miles, clear to the Pathfinder Dam, in just what I am telling you right now. If you had the balance here now, they would tell you the same thing as I am telling you. I am just doing this for your information.

Mr. HADSELL. I would like to say that what Mr. Sheehan says is the sentiment of that country. I am a sheepman, and we have been neighbors now for about 25 years, and we have got along fine.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe that is all, Mr. Sheehan, unless you have some further statement that you desire to make.

Mr. SHEEHAN. Well, there is just one statement I would like to make here. I heard you ask one of the witnesses if he was familiar with a resolution passed by the American National Livestock Asso

ciation.

The CHAIRMAN. In joint session with the National Woolgrowers

Association.

Mr. SHEEHAN. Now, to enlighten you people on the American National Livestock Association, I want to say that they do not represent 10 per cent of the sentiment of the cattlemen in the West, because I was a member of the association, helped organize it in DenTer, and when they started fighting the packers I withdrew. I was one of the witnesses for Armour & Co. at Denver three years ago, and I notice now the Secretary of Agriculture has thrown that case out. He has concluded that they were not trying to rob their neighbors when they bought Morris out to keep from going broke. So that anything that that association does I do not favor very much, because they have not got the sentiments of the cattlemen. It is very but that is against all of the members' will. You see, they get them true that they have go our association putting up money for them, at one of these little banquets and make a nice talk to them and get

them to contribute anywhere from $50 to $1,000 or $1,500 to keep it going. And they do not represent the sentiments of the cattle people, only just a few.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all, Mr. Sheehan, thank you. Mr. C. A. Myers.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES A. MYERS, CATTLE RAISER, KNIGHT, WYO.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give your name and address to the reporter?

Mr. MYERS. Charles A. Myers; Knight, Wyo.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you engaged in the livestock business, Mr. Myers?

Mr. MYERS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is your home?

Mr. MYERS. Well, I live close to Evanston, Wyo. It is really our post-office address.

The CHAIRMAN. What branch of the livestock industry are you engaged in?

Mr. MYERS. Cattle.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been engaged in the livestock business?

Mr. MYERS. All my life.

The CHAIRMAN. And has the major portion of that time been at Evanston?

Mr. MYERS. Always at that one place. I was born on the range where we do business.

The CHAIRMAN. And, Mr. Myers, do you graze your cattle within the confines of the national forest?

Mr. MYERS. No; but we graze them adjacent to that. We have land that runs from our ranches for about 20 miles up to the forest reserve. Consequently we are close neighbors to the forest people and occasionally trespass on them.

The CHAIRMAN. And do you graze on the unreserved public domain?

Mr. MYERS. We graze to a limited extent on the public domain;

yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Myers, will you make your statement? Mr. MYERS. The thing that I would like to inquire about is this: I would like to open this by asking a question or two of this committee. Where does all this uproar come from about the necessity for leasing the public domain? I can not understand, as a western man, after our experience with the Forest Service, how any large group of men can be so insistent at this time that a leasing law is necessary. Can you enlighten me as to this, Senator?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Myers, I can only say this to you: That the leasing of the public domain has been a mooted question for many past years, so far as my recollection goes. In the past three sessions of Congress there have been before committees of Congress bills providing for the leasing of the public domain. These hearings that this committee have been conducting have indicated that in the West there is a very large sentiment in favor of the leasing of the public domain. The hearings have also developed that there is considerable

opposition to the leasing of the public domain. As to how the States, other than the public land States, feel on the subject I have no information.

Mr. MYERS. Thank you. Well, I have been delving into this thing quite a bit, and I am absolutely unable among the stockmen that I have talked to-and I attended the Salt Lake meeting, and was very observant and attentive at that time--I can not understand where the main incentive comes for that particular thing. Now, I can understand how all this question comes up about the forest-reserve business. I can understand that. That is a thing that is all right with us, and we have to cope with the questions that it brings. But why all of a sudden we should have this leasing of the public domain thrust upon us is more than I can see.

Now, I have been watching these various bills that have come in on the leasing question for the last two or three years that you mention, but I never could find among the stockmen that I talked to any sentiment that would justify those bills in becoming law. I have been utterly unable to find where that sentiment developed.

Now, down in New Mexico-this is the closest that I can come to it-down in New Mexico they have a series of drift fences. Those fences have been there from 30 to 40 years. And Secretary Work has ordered that they take those fences down. Now, the New Mexico folks, in order to keep the fences where they belong, are willing to submit to this leasing proposition. They are, I think, going out of the frying pan into the fire; but, as a matter of fact, they are choosing what they consider the lesser horn of the dilemma. And I can see there where some of this sentiment may come from. But as to Wyoming going into that thing, why, it is preposterous to me. And I can find no sentiment whatever that will justify it.

Since attending that Salt Lake meeting I have talked to probably 100 stockmen-sheepmen and cattlemen both-and I have yet to find one man that wishes to have any leasing system take the place of our present system on the public domain.

That is all I wish to say directly, and I will come to some of the other things as you ask the questions.

The CHAIRMAN. If it had been left to the people of the State of Wyoming to decide as to whether the forest-reserve withdrawals should have been made and grazing thereon controlled, would they have, in your opinion, approved or disapproved?

Mr. MYERS. They would have disapproved. But in that there is an entirely different question that comes in. I was very much interested in the unconscious irony of the chairman when he asked one of the witnesses: "Was this a timbered forest?" I don't believe you realized just what you were saying, "Was this a timbered forest?" Well, now, what is a forest if it is not timbered? As a matter of fact they have taken out large areas from our public domain and called them forests that have not a stick of timber on them. I realize the fact that there are many places in our forests where, in order to get a reasonable conformation, they must take areas that are not timbered, but they have certainly gone the limit on that.

and other Western States concerned in grazing had taken cognizance The CHAIRMAN. Do you believe that if the people of Wyoming of the fact that Congress was going to enact a withdrawal law that

they would have concerned themselves as to the terms of that act?

Mr. MYERS. I think they would. But I think they would have fought the act to the last ditch. And, furthermore, there is a distinct. differentiation between the forest reserve act and this taking over of the public domain, inasmuch as they had the plea that the United States was going to need the timber. Grazing was never mentioned in that act. I well remember when Grover Cleveland in the last hours of his administration took over the first forest. But at that time the grazing on it was never thought of. And this taking over of our public domain is an absolutely different question. They have not the shadow of an excuse, as they had there a good, valid excuse in the preserving and the conservation of our timber.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, that only applies to the timbered areas and the areas whereon it was necessary to conserve forage and undergrowth for the purpose of conserving water supply. But it is a fact that large areas that were never timbered nor probably never will be timbered, and that did not require control for the purpose of conserving the source of water supply, were included within the forest reserves. If the people interested in grazing in the Western States had known that such a law was to be enacted it is probable that they would have insisted that the withdrawals be limited to only such areas as were necessary for the purposes of conserving the timber growing thereon and the source of water supply.

Mr. MYERS. I think that they would have very definitely insisted upon that. And in furtherance of that idea I will say that in the most southern portion of our county, where a number of our cattlemen graze their herds, for a number of years there was an insistent demand that they be taken into the forest reserve even though it was not forested. They wanted to be in that forest reserve just as hard as they could. But the last four or five years it has come home to them that it is not all gold that glitters, and in that forest reserve there are some disadvantageous things. And now they are trying with equal effort to keep out of the forest reserve.

My people in the eastern part of our county have been virtually crowded off the forest reserve even though they are Class A men, simply by the rules and regulations that have enabled one man who originally ran maybe four or five hundred head of cattle up in the forest reserve for a certain time to run from 12 to 20 head in there and put a tin bangle in the ear of each animal that runs on there. If they lose the bangle they come out of the forest reserve. Now it is those kind of things that would make us people see that we must restrict our national forests to strictly forest areas.

I realize fully that we must put up with the forest reserves to that extent, because we have to conserve the timber and the water. But when it comes to reaching out any further

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Myers, without voicing any opposition to the leasing of the public domain, do you not think that the livestock men of the State of Wyoming should look beyond that; and if there is to be a leasing of the public domain, regardless of their position as to leasing, do they not feel that they should have a voice in the shaping of the law that may be exacted?

Mr. MYERS. Yes; undoubtedly, but I am still in the garden hoping that this cup will pass.

The CHAIRMAN, You have so expressed yourself, and your position is very definitely recorded in the record, and it will be presented to the committee and probably to Congress. But going back for a moment to the enactment of the withdrawal act, do you not believe that the present users of the forest reserve as livestock men were both dilatory and negligent in not having concerned themselves at the time the withdrawal act was passed by having placed in that law provisions to safeguard their rights as livestock men?

Mr. MYERS. They were simply babes; they were innocent. They did not know what they were coming to at all. But now I can see that they should have written those things in.

The CHAIRMAN. And now they will not be able to go before a future Congress and say they were not advised as to the possibility and even probability of Congress enacting a law providing for the leasing of the public domain. Do you not believe that you, and those of you who are of the same sentiment that there should be no such law, after voicing your opposition thereto, should suggest to this committee such provisions, if such a law is to be enacted, as will best safeguard your interests in the use of the public domain?

Mr. MYERS. Yes; I would think that. I would like to put all the sugar in the cup that I can.

The CHAIRMAN, We would like to develop, in addition to your position, your ideas as to the limitations that should be placed in such a law to safeguard your interests as a user of the public domain. If Congress is to enact such a law, do you believe that the law should provide for a long term of tenure?

Mr. MYERS. Yes; the longer the better.

The CHAIRMAN. And what is your opinion of the rental that should be charged?

Mr. MYERS. Not above the cost of administration. Not only that but limit the number of officials to the really necessary number. Keep the cost of administration to the lowest point and do not charge

above that.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you believe that if leases are to be made to the sers with such liberal provisions that they themselves will make the rules providing for the use of the public domain, they will safeguard and conserve the forage growing on the public domain leased to

them?

Mr. MYERS. I think so, under a long tenure of lease.

The CHAIRMAN. You have stated that you are an owner of private holdings that you use for grazing. Do you conserve the forage that grows on your private holdings?

Mr. MYERS. We certainly do.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you ever willingly overgraze?

Mr. MYERS. Why, yes; sometimes we do. And that is the point. one of the main points, why we should keep the public domain where it is to-day. Many people in our community have been completely

crowded off the forest reserve by those 10 per cent and 25 per cent cuts. They say, "You have disobeyed some regulation and you can not go on there," and they are crowded back onto our public domain until such time as the forage on their home ranches will take them through the grazing season. Now, every time they are crowded off the forest reserve there comes just that much more need of keeping

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