Mr. BOWDEN. Forest? How long have you been a permittee on the Mr. JENSEN. Well, the livestock interests that I represent have been permittees ever since the Forest Reserve was created. Mr. BOWDEN. And when was that? Mr. JENSEN. About, 1903, I think. Mr. BOWDEN. And during those years have they used the same range? Mr. JENSEN. Yes, sir; they have used the same range until last year. Excepting it has been cut down some. We used to run clear to what we call the rim of Fall River Basin, but several years ago it was cut down to Lead Creek. Mr. BOWDEN. Is there any fencing on the Forest Reserve in the neighborhood of your range? Mr. JENSEN. No, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Has the Forest Service expended any money in making any improvements or in eliminating rodents or wild animals.. or doing anything to improve the grazing? Mr. JENSEN. Why, they have built some roads and trails, and the Biological Survey has had trappers up in the country almost continuously. Mr. BOWDEN. You stated that you were a member of an advisory board? Mr. JENSEN. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Does your advisory board have a voice in the making of the rules regulating grazing in your district? Mr. JENSEN. Yes, sir; to a certain extent. Mr. BOWDEN. To what extent? Mr. JENSEN. Well, we have some by-laws in our association that the forest reserve recognizes, and that all permittees have to come under those by-laws. Mr. BOWDEN. Is your advisory board consulted on the time that the range is opened? Mr. JENSEN. No; it is not. Mr. BOWDEN. Is your advisory board consulted on the time that the stock is to come off the forest reserve? Mr. JENSEN. Come off-why, we are supposed to take them off the 15th of October, but they are always off before the 15th of September, the majority of them. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you think that there is enough voice given in operating on the forest reserve to the advisory board? Mr. JENSEN. I believe we should have more to say about it. I believe we should have something to say about where the salt is put, and not just have a ranger tell us to put it there when we think it is the wrong place. Mr. BOWDEN. Is there anything else that you think you ought to have some control over that you have no control over now? Mr. JENSEN. Well, we ought to be assured of getting our permits every year; to have that legalized. The CHAIRMAN. That is all, unless you have some further statement, Mr. Jensen, that you would like to make. Mr. JENSEN. That is all, thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dennis Sheehan. STATEMENT OF DENNIS J. SHEEHAN, CATTLE AND HORSE RAISER, PROMONTORY POINT, UTAH The CHAIRMAN. Will you please give your name and address to the reporter. Mr. SHEEHAN. D. J. Sheehan. Promontory Point, Utah. I want to impress on you that I am a land and cattle owner in this State. I have cattle ranches in both States. I have cattle here in Wyoming, and land holdings, and also a ranch in Utah, and I really vote down there, you see. The CHAIRMAN. What branch of the livestock industry are you engaged in? Mr. SHEEHAN. I am in the cattle business. The CHAIRMAN. In both Utah and Wyoming? Mr. SHEEHAN. In both Utah and Wyoming; and in the horse business. The CHAIRMAN. In cattle and horses? Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Now, in the State of Wyoming do you graze within the confines of the national forests? Mr. SHEEHAN. NO: nowhere near them. any national forest. Not within 75 miles of The CHAIRMAN. You graze on the public domain? Mr. SHEEHAN. I graze on the public domain. The CHAIRMAN. Do you graze within the national forests in the State of Utah? Mr. SHEEHAN. No: I own my holdings there altogether. The CHAIRMAN. Private holdings? Mr. SHEEHAN, Private holdings. The CHAIRMAN. And public domain? Mr. SHEEHAN. Very little public domain. I am on a promontory Jut there, and north of me there are all settlers, farmers. I would not be interested in a lease law out there, or a Forest Service law, or anything like that. It would not interest me. would be vital to my holdings. But here a lease law The CHAIRMAN. Let us get this plain, Mr. Sheehan. You are engaged in the livestock industry in Utah and Wyoming. In Utah privately owned holdings? you graze on sir. Mr. SHEEHAN. In Utah I graze on privately owned holdings; yes, The CHAIRMAN. In the State of Wyoming you Mr. SHEEHAN. Graze in the summer season on public domain. Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Is the value of your ranch property dependent upon your right to graze on the public domain? Mr. SHEEHAN. It is, absolutely. lic domain, would it affect the values of your ranch property in the The CHAIRMAN. If you were denied the right to graze on the pub State of Wyoming? Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask you a question, if you feel Do you find it more profitable to produce your livestock in the State of Wyoming, where you are using the public domain, than it is to produce livestock on your privately owned properties in the State of Utah? Which is the more profitable? Mr. SHEEHAN. It would be more profitable where you have the public domain in connection with your private holdings. The CHAIRMAN. And that has been your experience? Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes. Now, if you would permit me-I have only a little time, as I have to get a train out of here and have only got until 3 o'clock-if that is long enough, I would explain that to you, if you will permit me to right now, and it would save a lot of time. Now, you picture this as representing a river of 100 miles, with settlers, cattlemen, practically all along that river-that is the Sweetwater-from South Pass clear to the Pathfinder Dam. The CHAIRMAN. That is in Wyoming? Mr. SHEEHAN. That is in Wyoming, right up here in Fremont County. An say for instance we have fairly good holdings, each man would have from a mile to five miles of the river. And nearly all of his river holdings are under irrigation; he cuts hay on some of it, and some he turns his cattle on. The CHAIRMAN. Those are his ranch holdings? Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes, those are his ranch holdings. And to make it plain to you, I could get on a saddle horse at Rock Springs and go north and northeast to the North Western Railway and never see a wire fence. That is how vast these holdings are on the public dimain. Now for instance, say that I have about 1,200 cattle, a neighbor 1,000, another neighbor 500 or 600, and so on. If he was compelled to confine his business to his own holdings he would have to cut down to about 100 or 200 cattle. You see he would be eating up his winter feed in the summer. Do you understand? And it would make it a very small proposition. On the other hand, if some man was allowed to go and lease this land we could starve him to death by starving ourselves a little bit, and put him out of busi ness. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, the public domain is dependent on your ranch property as much as your ranch property is dependent on the public domain? Mr. SHEEHAN. Absolutely, absolutely. And in explaining this lease law-I have had quite a little experience on the range, been here since 1882, been owning cattle since 1888, and ranching. And I will show you how this lease law would work. Now I am not speaking about the Forest Reserve, but just of this country here where we have got more public domain, I guess than anywhere. Say I have a spring out here about five miles from the ranch that would water 5,000 cattle. Well, we pass the lease law. Well, they say, "We will give Sheehan 10 miles of this square. That is all he is entitled to." You see that is for my summer range. It might be 20 miles east of me with no water. Here is my neighbor down here; they say he is entitled to that. All right, he doesn't want to lease because there is no water on it. He has to get Sheehan's water. Consequently that would not be workable. Whereas as it is I own that water, and my neighbor would own water farther off, but here is a man in between us who hasn't any water. Well, now, he would be at our mercy absolutely under a lease law. As it is his cattle could go on our water, and our cattle could go on the proposed ground that he is leasing. And in that event why it would be I think more economical to leave the land as it is. And there is one thing that I would say to you from my experience in the West, and that is that we want to give this other fellow the same show we had. Now this poor fellow that drops out here, taking this 640-acre homestead, he ought to be entitled to that if he thinks he can do anything with it. And if you make a lease law I don't see any way in the world that you can make that and bar settlement. That has been threshed out for a long time. The CHAIRMAN. Well, then, it is your opinion that if Congress sees fit to enact a general leasing law there must be a provision in there that will permit of land settlement and of appropriation of the public domain for that purpose? Mr. SHEEHAN. Absolutely. I don't think you could ever pass one that would bar settlement of the public domain. I don't think such a law could be passed. The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by you don't think it could be passed? Mr. SHEEHAN. Well, public sentiment goes a long way in passing a law, doesn't it? The CHAIRMAN. It should have everything to do with passing a law. Mr. SHEEHAN. Well, that is just it; that is what I am trying to tell you right now. The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is a thing that would have to be determined, either by the people or by their representatives, would it not? Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sheehan, you have pictured a group of settlers on the Sweetwater River. Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Who control 100 miles of that river. Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Would it be possible for the settlers on that 100 miles of river whose ranch properties are dependent on the right to graze the public domain, the use of which for grazing is inseparately linked with the use of those privately owned ranches-would it be possible or would it be practical for those settlers to take a lease of that area and agree among themselves upon the proper administration and division thereof or the use of it in common? Mr. SHEEHAN. I don't believe they would enter into such an agreement, unless they could enter into a joint agreement to take a vast territory and put it under fence, you see, which would be a very heavy expense; it would be impractical to favor any leasing or use words, we have this settlement always before us, don't you see. You can not stop this man from settling. And we would not have any permanent tenure of that lease unless you bar settlement. would come in conflict with the right of settling and appropriation? tenure if it Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes; and that is why a person would not want to fence it, for the fact that a man might come in, or 10 men, or 20 men, and just take all of his land. They could pay him for his fence or let it stand there. The CHAIRMAN. You have been grazing on this area for a period of 12 years, did you say? Mr. SHEEHAN. Thirty-five. The CHAIRMAN. In Wyoming? Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-five years? Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Now, during the 35 years that you have used this area of public domain has the forage thereon been depleted or depreciated through overgrazing or promiscuous grazing? Mr. SHEEHAN. Well, I would say at one time it was, years ago. The range was pretty heavily overstocked with sheep. And you know God Almighty is a great regulator, and He regulated that one winter, and since then it has not appeared to be overstocked. Now, we might get a dry season like last season. We do not have any more stock than we had a year ago, and some parts of that range are as bare as that floor, because we did not get rain enough. The CHAIRMAN. How much cheaper can you raise cattle in Wyoming where you have access to the public domain than you can raise cattle in the State of Utah on your privately owned holdings? Mr. SHEEHAN. Well, now, that is a question that won't apply everywhere. I got this land at a reasonable price, some from the great Crocker estate, the railroad grant out there, and most of it $1.50 an acre. I just hit a steer over there with a wet saddle rope in the winter when he is bothering around the place, and my steers are doing pretty good. My alfalfa fields are on the same order as here. I let them winter in the hills. I keep them away from the fields. If we put them in these alfalfa fields 40 or 50 days we get good beef. I don't know as I ever-well, I never paid a dollar on them from the day I bought them until the day I sold them. They are living in the country, and I run them out of the field. The CHAIRMAN. You winter without feeding out there? Mr. SHEEHAN. Yes; out there, but there might come a time when it is necessary to do that. You would feed she stuff, but you never feed a steer. So we could not compare that with this. The CHAIRMAN. Do you feel that the man who was using the public domain is enjoying a special privilege that makes him an unfair competitor with the man who is raising livestock as you are in Utah on your privately owned lands? Mr. SHEEHAN. No; I would not say that he would be. For this reason. If any man wants to use that public domain he has a perfect right to go in there and try it, you see, if he thinks he can run stock there and make a go of it. He can not do it because he has to go somewhere and winter. Now suppose, as I said, there was this situation about these watering places that the people own. Why, I can go there and fence that there is no law that makes me tear my fence out of my own holdings. Well, this fellow has no more range than a rabbit. The CHAIRMAN. Well, by reason of your holdings do you control and regulate the grazing on this portion of the public domain to which you refer? Mr. SHEEHAN. We do; yes, sir. And furthermore, I would want to make a statement. There are a great many people who say |