wanted the money and I took the matter up with them through correspondence, told them I had made the loan for three years and they came back and said, well, they wanted their money and that was all there was to it. I was not in position to take it up and get money anywhere else. I wanted to know how it was and they finally told me "We change our rules and regulations from time to time and you have to comply with them; now, you come through." That is all the recourse I had, "We change our rules and regulations from time to time and you come through," and they proceeded to go ahead to sell me out, but I headed them off. We don't know when they change their minds and we can't tell when they are going to change their minds from time to time.

This bunch of politicians get in and we have got to be safeguarded, and I think that the Shoshone resolution should take care of it as well as it could be taken care of. I guess that is about all I have to say.

Mr. MCLEAN. That is the reason we want to get things passed by Congress, just as Senator Stanfield says, to get the basic rules and regulations which we are to have and then have Congress pass them into laws, and then if you violate them you are violating the law as you do any other law, and you know where you stand and are given some stability.

Mr. MCNAMARA. Mr. Chris Anderson, from Idaho Falls.

Mr. ANDERSON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I have always been opposed to the Government or the Eastern States destroying all their natural resources, such as timber and other things, and then coming out here into the West and taking what little we have left out here. We came into this country, took possession of it, got the sagebrush off, and made it possible for people to live here; then the Government comes along and takes possession of all the few undeveloped resources that we have. As stated by the secretary, they have already got 35 per cent, and now they want another 35 per cent. Personally I would just as soon take a chance with the State government as I would with the National Government in regard to these matters, as they are nearer home and they are easier to get at. I don't think politics change any oftener, or at least not much oftener, in the State than they do in the National Government. I suppose that this suggestion that something has to be done with the public domain has come from some one in the East or Middle West. I don't have any idea that it came from anyone in these 11 Western States that has been mentioned here this afternoon. If we had not had quite so much regulating and had been left to ourselves to handle our own affairs and mind our own business, I think we would all have been a lot better off than we are. It appears from what I have heard since coming into this meeting this afternoon that we have got to take this medicine that they have mixed for us, and if we do I don't think I can suggest any improvements over those that were passed at Shoshone. I think that is about all I have to say.

Mr. MCNAMARA. Mr. Hunter, of St. Anthony.

Mr. HUNTER. I don't know whether I can add anything to what has already been said. There has been a lot of changes in the way the forest has been handled, and not for the benefit of the stockman. We find, like Mr. Swenson just remarked, that they have full jurisdiction over anything we might do. I might bring up an illustration, a little thing that happened to me while on the

trail.

They had a young man who had just returned from college, and they placed him there to count the sheep and keep them moving on. He told me to go right ahead and follow the trail, and he would go right on down ahead of us and keep everything out of the way. Of course, I was supposed to do as he said, but we didn't. We stopped and thought we would rest up awhile, so he came on down, and he felt quite good, and he told us we better go on and travel along the trail, but we waited awhile. I noticed he took a different road, going north instead of east, and supposed he was going down the trail to keep everything out of my way. In a little while he came back; he had his hat pulled down over his eyes, and he rode up and said, "Can you tell me where the sheep trail is; I am unable to find my way here?" There had been 30,000 head of sheep going over that trail; he didn't even know enough to follow their trail or read the signs; he hadn't even noticed any. Had I disobeyed his order and I had been right. I would have been brought before the supervisor for disobeying the supervisor. Sometimes we find those instructions are wrong, and probably are the cause of the ruin of a good many sheepmen, because of the inexperience of some of these young men that try to do right, and I feel that 43213-25-PT 10--11

where a man may be wrong through the lack of experience, and though he may think he is doing right, we ought to have some board of appeals, as has been brought out in the resolution passed at Shoshone or by the members of that organization, and I feel that the 11 men from the different States would be more apt to give us justice than probably a board or a committee that might be chosen by the State. I don't agree that there wouldn't be any political influence; the politicians would say, "If you assist me I will place you in a position where you may have your rights," and probably destroy somebody else's rights doing it, and I feel that through the Government handling the situation and men chosen from the different States we will probably get more justice than from the States.

I believe if you enacted laws that would govern those things instead of leaving it up to certain individuals who have full control. In regard to the forest rights of the State, I feel that the grazing rights should be protected just the same as forest rights. Where we find any young man that probably would like to go into the stock business coming around and cutting us down so that we that have been in the business and have fought these things and have financed them and have worked to have them in legal form, and have paid our taxes, and have worked so that we might be able to accumulate means in a way to provide for ourselves, it certainly isn't fair to have it taken away from us in just small lots until we have nothing to interest us and are forced to go out of business. I feel that a great many of these resolutions that we have heard here should be enacted. That is my opinion.

Mr. McLEAN. People in the East are so likely to assume that it is cutting out the chance of any smaller grower to get in the business if we are given any legal right. That doesn't work out in anything; they can always buy more. This is just exactly like the water rights.

Another point that you brought up, we are not making any personal fight or trying to get into personalities in this fight with the Forest Service. Just as one man said, "My best friend is a forest man, but I disagreed with the principle of the thing." Another man said, "I have a Democrat living next door to me that I would call on in case of trouble before I would anybody else, but when it came to voting he would vote the Democratic ticket and I would vote the Republican, and that is the way I feel about the Forest Service; they are my friends, but it is the principle of the whole organization I am against." Mr. MCNAMARA. Mr. Joseph Anderson, from Idaho Falls.

Mr. J. ANDERSON. I do not know that I can add anything to what has been said. As far as I feel personally, I would rather things could remain as they If that is not possible, why the resolution that has been read covers the ground as well as anything that I could think of, and I am in favor of voting that resolution when it comes to a vote.

are.

Mr. MCNAMARA. Mr. Edwards.

Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. Chairman, I am like some of these other fellows. I haven't a great deal to say; I haven't followed this up very closely. I am of the opinion that inasmuch as there is so much agitation now under Government control of the forest I believe if we could do anything to get the thing handled by the State, each State individually, it would be better than to go under Government control by the forest department that is in control now. Many times we have had things come up and men thrown off of the forest through some disagreement with the ranger, and they cut us down so that we do not know from year to year what we are going to get next year. As far as young men getting in business, they have the same rights and can get in business the same as men who can buy land and water rights. I think a man should be allowed to dispose of his permits on the forest as he would his land. There are a lot of things the forest department has not looked after for the stockman in the right way, and I do not have anything more to say. I think we should adopt a plan of some kind as to where it should go and let each State individually control it. That is about all I have to say.

Mr. MCNAMARA. Mr. Paul Nash, from Pocatello, secretary of the Farm Bureau.

Mr. NASH. Mr. Chairman, I hardly expected to be called upon. However, as secretary of the Farm Bureau, I know that the average farmer quite naturally has an interest in the administration of the public domain. I do not know that I can add anything. As it has been outlined to us, I believe the rights of the average farmer can be very well taken care of.

One point that came to my mind in connection with Congress to pass in reference to public domain, and it recalled to me that only last season that reclama- .

tion project where they were going to extend some help to men or farmers who were in arrears on these reclamation projects, and only recently the commissioner has ruled that there has been and is going to be no relief extended. It was my understanding-I was there at the time the legislation was passedand the understanding was that the Congress has passed that and there would be some relief given, and the commissioner now rules that there would be none. I wonder if it would not be pretty well to be specific in regard to it. That is, in reference to your court of appeals, how they should be appointed and who should appoint them. The thought occurs to me it might be well to guard against it and state how the appointment should be made.

Mr. MCLEAN. Most of them ask that the Interior should make it, but at Soda Springs they asked that they shall be appointed by the State associations using the public domain.

Mr. MCNAMARA. Mr. Secretary, just read those resolutions from Shoshone and Soda Springs both.

Mr. MCLEAN. They are almost identical, except in two places.

(Resolutions read by secretary.)

Mr. MCNAMARA. Now we have got a pretty good start on this and we are going to throw it open for a general discussion. Has anybody here anything they would like to offer along this line, any suggestions or any resolutions? We would like to hear from anybody. If nobody else has anything to offer it might be well to take up the matter of some resolutions. How would you want to handle it? Do you want to appoint a committee?

Mr. NEILSON. Mr. Shoshone meeting.

Chairman, I move that we adopt the resolutions of the I believe that suits me. There is only one difference and that is, as I see it, whether or not that public domain shall be controlled by allotment or lease. It seems to me that we are satisfied with what we have the allotment system. I move the adoption.

Mr. PETERSON. I second that motion.

Mr. MCNAMARA. Any remarks.

Mr. CоHN, of Bannock County. How does that resolution by allotment or by lease?

Mr. McLEAN. The Shoshone resolutions do not say. That can be worked out afterwards.

Mr. GEO. A. PINCOCK, Sugar City. Is that resolution the one you are expecting to vote on now?

Mr. MCLEAN. I will read that resolution; the others are about the same. The Shoshone meeting, the motion states that the forest and public domain be administered by the same bureau or department of the Government, without any allotment or association of any kind. You want them all under the same department so that there will be unified action; that is the idea of that.

Mr. PETERSON. I understood that it would be under allotment.

Mr. ANDERSON. In regard to the appointment of that board of 11. I think the resolution from Soda Springs that they be appointed by the State or some association. Will you read that?

Mr. MCLEAN. The Shoshone said that the appointment be made by the Secretary of Interior and the Soda Springs by State associations using the public domain.

Mr. ANDERSON. I would like this man to change that to include that part of the Soda Springs resolution instead of the part in the other providing that the Secretary of the Interior appoint that committee.

Mr. NEILSON. I will accept that amendment to my motion. I think these men should be appointed by the association.

Mr. PETERSON. I object.

Mr. MCNAMARA. You will have to make that as a separate motion.

Mr. ANDERSON. I would like to make that amendment to the motion that he made.

Mr. EDWARDS. I second that.

Mr. CоHN. I would like to hear that amendment.

Mr. MCLEAN. The original motion had it that members of the board of appeals should be appointed by the Secretary of Interior and the amendment has it that a board of appeals be created by Congress, members of which shall be appointed by State associations using the public domain.

Mr. MCNAMARA. Any further remarks to the amendment to the motion? Are you ready for the question?

Mr. PINCOCK. I think I am opposed to the amendment on the grounds that has been mentioned by a number of those during the discussion here this afternoon. If these delegates are appointed by local associations it will fall in politics. I would rather say that these delegates be appointed by the Secretary of the Interior, if that is the department that is controlling it.

Mr. MCLEAN. There has been one suggestion before that the governor appoint them. Would you rather have the Secretary of Interior appoint them than the governor of the State?

Mr. PINCOCK. Yes; I would rather have it go past the State government. I am not in favor of State government control.

Mr. HUNTER. I can't see for myself where they are appointed by the 11 States how it could fall in politics. Some States would be Democratic and some Republican, and it looks to me like it might be an even draw or even break. It looks to me like it would take it out of politics as near as I can see. If all the Western States were either Democratic or Republican they then might make it a political affair, but as it is I don't think politics would interfere as far as selecting them is concerned.

Mr. THOMPSON. I am opposed to the associations controlling the public domain. They want to scrape out every man by the few of themselves and that is what we are opposed to.

Mr. ANDERSON. I don't understand this is a question of controlling the public domain, it is a question of appointing a board of appeals that the stockman can appeal to in case he gets into differences with the Forest Service or who ever has control of this public domain. It seems to me that we would have to admit that we are in a better position to name a man to represent us on that board than the Secretary of Interior to make that appointment. He is back in Washington and we are out here. That is the reason that I am in favor of the amendment, because we know who we want to represent us and I think as stockmen and American citizens we have a perfect right to have a voice in this matter. That is the reason I have made this amendment.

Mr. MCLEAN. I think if it was left with the Secretary of the Interior he would do as he always does in such appointments, call in the Idaho delegation and ask them whom they should appoint.

Mr. ANDERSON. Why should it be by a disinterested person who should appoint them?

Mr. MCLEAN. Of course, I don't care what you make it, but the Secretary of Interior would always consider the delegation from that State when making the appointment. He always does.

Mr. RICKS, from Rexburg. It seems to me your selecting committee would be top-heavy. I notice that if a stockman has a grievance and if it would be necessary to call in a committee from 11 States they would be pretty busy every day in the year. The question seems to be some court of appeals instead of the jurisdiction all resting with the forest reserve. The intent of this motion is to place the final judgment in the hands of a party who is not interested in the use of the reserve. It seems to me that the way to do that would be to put that court in each county where there is a reserve. If you take that authority from the forest people why can't the probate or district court make the final decision as to who was right or wrong. I can easily enough see that if you are going to have one committee to handle these disputes between the stockman and the ranger and they are selected from the 11 Western States it will cause an expense that the industry won't stand if you are going to pay them well. It seems to me the cheaper way and most economical way would be to merely take it and put it with the courts of the county.

Mr. NEILSON. I might just as well say we should not have a Supreme Court of the United States, because it would be top-heavy. They do not listen to any of the minor differences any more than this would. It doesn't mean that because a man would have trouble with his ranger that he will take it up with this board, but it means that after a final decision has been made by an officer controlling this forest and then if the man wants to he can appeal, because if he is thrown off the forest he will want some place to appeal and this court would handle cases like that. Would you rather appeal to 11 practical sheepmen or the Secretary of Interior or some probate judge? I will take my chances with the 11 sheepmen. I believe it would be the finest thing, the final appeal to 11 men and I certainly favor that amendment.

Mr. McLEAN. This has been discussed before, and they have suggested that within the State or perhaps a man from each county or local association that would constitute a sort of State court.

I be

Mr. HUNTER. If I understand this right, in a case of a man losing his rights was what this board of appeals would be appointed for, and not every minor thing would be taken to this court. That is the thought I had in mind. lieve it would be a good idea to put up to vote on the motion to see what the board was to consist of. I feel it would be a good idea to put it up to the house.

Mr. MCLEAN. At most of these meetings the understanding was, in regard to this committee from the 11 Western States, that they merely were to take care of the general policy of the handling of the grazing in the 11 Western States, and, as Mr. Neilson has said, they would be the last court of appeal on questions of vital importance. The question of handling individuals, some kind of board would be created in the State itself that would settle the minor problems within the State, and it has been with that understanding that these resolutions have been passed along that line.

Mr. NASH. The idea that one thing that you would like to have and those Interested in the public domain would like to have would be for Congress to pass basic laws instead of the Forest Service setting aside so much this year and deciding to set so much more aside next year. You want Congress to pass laws defining just what shall be just and the rules and regulations of the public domain are.

Mr. McLEAN. If Congress should say it is against the law of the United States for you to destroy the feed and let you graze your herds as long as you did not destroy the feed on the public domain, that would simplify the matter. As it is, they cut us and change us around and have innumerable complicated regulations.

Mr. NASH. I want to offer the thought that inasmuch as the consensus of opinion is that the administration of the public domain be made to come under one department, and that should be a governmental department, and that you also recommend that it be moved West, where the large portion is, that being 80, it might be better for all interests concerned. That being true, we might be able to come to a better decision or better administration in this court of appeals by the various interests making recommendations to the Secretary of Interior or delegates making recommendations and he in turn make the appointments from those recommendations. I think it is rather better to mention industries mixed up in it than the thought that all sheepmen would be named as the board of appeals. Certainly there would be other agricultural interests who would be considered in these appointments, and in no other way would we get an impartial decision that may be made by that board, and, for that matter, I might say that, representing the farm bureau, they would be against that and would stand for the original resolution that was read and that was adopted at the Shoshone meeting.

Mr. MCNAMARA. Mr. Nash, of course, it is perfectly natural that at these meetings for the word "sheepmen" to creep in, because they are composed largely of sheepmen, but there is no thought or idea at these meetings to turn it over to sheepmen. It is better to use the word "stockmen," as that takes care of the small growers on the farm, and he is represented just as much as any other. I stated at the beginning of this meeting that the cattlemen have started out to hold a series of nine meetings all over the State.

Mr. NASH. I want to say here I have had two conversations in reference to this question, and they want to guard jealously that very thing. Of course, if the sheepmen themselves would want to get ambitious along this line, it Wouldn't do any good; but at the same time I believe we ought to arrive at Some solution of this question here whereby we can retain that representation in the hands of all who might utilize the range.

Mr. MCLEAN. Just as we said at the beginning of this discussion, we don't want to go as sheepmen and cattlemen and then have the farmers get up and say they want something entirely different. We are trying our best to get all people represented and we are very anxious to notify your people so that we can get united action.

Mr. J. D. ELLIS (Clark County). I understood that they were going to put in all the public domain in the reserve.

Mr. MCLEAN. They are going to do something as to what the stockmen

want.

Mr. ELLIS. I was told at Mackey that they figured to put it all under the

reserve.