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cally control the grazing situation in the State in which their rules would apply. That is along the lines practically of Mr. Stanfield's ideas. I am not going to say whether the charge should be made on a per acre or a per head basis. There is plenty of range for the little man and the big.

I think we could handle the thing along those lines, and there could be a board of appeals and there would be sufficient funds collected from the livestock industry and a darn sight more than would be necessary, and some money could go to the State and some to the Government for replanting trees and the upkeep of our forest and the educating of men along the lines of planting trees, and doing something for the good of future generations. I think that is about all I have to say along this line.

Mr. MCLEAN. One big argument for the Department of Interior that has been brought up repeatedly at other hearings and which I haven't had time to add to my brief yet is that the Interior Secretary will always be a western man. Because the public lands over which he has control are almost all situated in the Western States. The Interior Secretary has been a western man for a number of years and probably always will be, while in the Department of Agriculture we will probably almost always have a man from the Middle West which is the center of the agricultural district of the United States, and a man who represents the point of view of the farming interests.

We of the 11 western States will probably always have a good deal to say regarding the man who is appointed Secretary of Interior, and coming from the West he will doubtless know something of range conditions and the livestock game and have a sympathetic understanding of our problems.

All the Secretaries of Agriculture up to this time have been from Iowa except Houston, who came from Missouri and Texas. We are fortunate now in having Jardine, who was born in Idaho and spent much of his life in Utah and knows us pretty well. But can't ever hope for such luck again.

Last night we were talking to a banker in Mackey, who said he had just been asked to correct or judge a lot of limericks and rhymes to be posted by the Forestry Department to aid in the prevention of fire. They were written by the school children to whom prizes were offered for the best. He said ont of 700 of them passed in there at Mackey he believed that over 500 had phrases in them to the effect that the careless sheep herder or the careless cowboy had started the fire by lighting a cigarette or dropping a match, and he believed this was all nothing more than a lot of propaganda of the Forest Service against this publicity we were putting out, to show that the sheepman and his sheep are one of the greatest protections the forest has, while it is the tourist who is the great menace.

Mr. ED GOODING. Mr. Curran, from Hagerman.

Mr. CURRAN. This thing has come up so suddenly that it has not given a great many of us time for thought. It is a pretty big proposition, and it takes a good deal of time to think it out. However, in reference to the allotment of this range to individuals, it occurs to me that all the States can not be allotted alike. We find that in our country where we are all familiar with her range, and it is run from different angles to a central point. How, in my mind, can that be handled individually and then carried on up to the edge of the forest reserve? I can't see, under the conditions of the range, how each man would get justice. If any one of us, individually, got an allotment, it would mean we would have to buy feed until the forest opened. Each year we have to rework it, according to climatic conditions. As far as supervision is concerned, my personal opinion is that there is no way it can be allotted to individuals to do justice to themselves as well as the whole bunch. We will lamb some years early and some years late. In making the move from the range down below to the high range we would have to have three or four areas in order to make lambs. I suppose that association control or blanket leases probably would work out all right. If the crowd would get together on this thing, it could be worked out some way. At the present time it looks to me like instead of individual allotment it would have to be a blanket lease.

Mr. MCLEAN. Governed according to locality, one or two specific laws, and then in a district like this it would be handled like a grazing association, a good deal like the grazing association at Soda Springs. There you pay your fee and go anywhere you want to on that lease. They say that up by Emmett there is practically an allotment system. We have other sheepmen that could range that don't have to trail back and forth, so that they have their own specific allotments. But in contrast to this there is one member who runs his sheep at Soda Springs and buys his hay at Rupert. He would have to have

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the privilege of coming down there each year to feed his hay. Local associations handling that would probably be the best way, and not have any rules and regulations administered at Washington that would try to adapt themselves to conditions in Arizona and the Soda Springs country equally.

Mr. GOODING. Mr. Laidlaw, from Muldoon.

Mr. LAIDLAW. I did not hear the full discussion. I don't know as I have anything to say very much. The question I guess seems to be Who is going to control this, whether it is to be under the Department of Interior or would be under some form of regulation by the Forest Service. If it is to be put under the Forest Service we better let it stay as it is, as they are a public nuisance. If they keep the thing up as they are doing we might just as well quit. The red tape we have to go through eats up the profit of the business.

Mr. FRED GOODING. I think we should get together along some line or other. The Congress of the United States after this Senate committee makes its report will pass some laws that are going to govern us on the range, and if we can't get together I am afraid the Forest Service will be out here to tell us how to divide this public domain up. I think we can do it better ourselves if they will just give us a chance.

Mr. ED GOODING. Mr. Thomas Gooding, from Shoshone.

Mr. T. GOODING. My ideas are that the rights on the reserve and on the public domain will have to be legalized, and in order to legalize them we will have to turn the range over to the Interior Department. Then we should pay a lease on it for a number of years, say 20 years, and then it should be deeded to us just like if you take up 640 acres of land and fulfill the requirements of residence, etc., it finally becomes ours. If we want to sell out we can sell it to the man that buys our sheep or anyone else. It has got to be a legal right in order to do something with it.

Mr. FARMER. I think if the Department of Interior could be interested in taking over these forest and public domains it might be a good thing for the livestock interest of the whole country, but I don't think that the forest people would want to give them up. It might be a little easier for us to get laws enacted that would take care of the stock interests of the country, if pressure was brought to bear strong enough so that the present rates could be reduced to such a point that the livestock interests could stand to pay them. It might be a fine thing to have these permits for 10 or 20 or 50 years, but I am not so sure if at the end of that time that our entire spring and fall range was given to us, deeded to us, that we could continue to even pay the taxes on it unless the taxes on these early spring and fall ranges were reduced. If we owned all of our spring and fall range it would break everyone of us. We would probably have to pay the same taxes to the State that they are asking to-day on these 640-acre homesteads. If we did the taxes alone will cost us every dollar that it is worth. You can rent them to-day by paying the taxes on them. I don't know whether I would want to own all my spring and fall range if it was given to me or not.

Mr. GOODING. Mr. Streitz, president of the Sawtooth Grazing Association. Mr. STREITZ. I haven't anything to add. I think the others have covered it pretty well. I believe like Mr. Fred Gooding says, we have got to work together or the Forest Department will put things over to suit themselves, and we all know what the Forest Service has done, and as he says a committee of 1 man from the 11 western grazing States could be appointed and those 11 get together, then we can do something. I believe the Department of the Interior is the right place for it; not the Forest Department. Under the State of Idaho it would act as a football for politics, and we do not want that. Mr. GOODING. Mr. Darrah, from Shoshone.

Mr. DARRAH. I think the thing to do is to get the best you think you can out of it and believe that is about as good as we can do.

Mr. ED GOODING. Mr. Driscoll, from Boise.

Mr. DRISCOLL. I hesitate to talk about grazing, because you men who are actually engaged in the business know so much more about than I do. There are two things I would like to say, though, and that is: I haven't seen one thing that the Government ever undertook to regulate that it was not sooner or later regulated out of business. I am afraid of being regulated, as I am afraid the results will be disastrous. They are usually regulated until there is no profit for us. But it looks as though we were in for some sort of regulation, and if so, the other thought I have is this: I think it would be a mistake to have one-half of our grazing administration in the Interior Department and the Forest Service in the Agricultural Department. I think, by all means,

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they should be combined. The Lord knows where we would be with two bureaus managing our affairs. I am inclined to think the Forest Department, as far as grazing is concerned, should be transferred to the Department of the Interior.

Mr. FRED GOODING. The way I meant was that the rules and regulations would be made by a local association or a committee of the State association, such as the Idaho Wool Growers; and get local people in the State to make the rules and regulations covering these ranges-men who have had experience in the livestock business, and that the last word should not entirely be left up to men educated solely to grow trees. I want men who have had practi cally 15 or 20 years' experience. I don't think we could get hurt in any way if we had such a board. As far as the taxes are concerned that Mr. Farmer talked about, I don't think we ever want to get ourselves into a position where we can be subjected to taxes from the State and the local county, for the reason that we would have to pay in more in taxes than the value we ever would get out in grass. I believe we should pay the Government a certain amount for this range. It is possible we might provide a way by means of the court of appeals, whereby we would not pay any more than we are paying and whereby it would be used judiciously, and there would not be so much of it thrown and frittered away. I think the Government of the United States would receive quite a compensation from the public lands. As it is this State and the other States put all the money that is gotten from the livestock fees and timber sales, 25 per cent to schools and 25 per cent to roads and 50 per cent goes to the Government for the forest fellows to fool away.

Mr. ED GOODING. Mr. McNamara, we would like to have you tell us the attitude of the cattlemen up at Mackey.

Mr. MCNAMARA. Mr. Chairman, we met at Mackey yesterday with the representatives of a number of different associations up there, and the cattlemen were represented more than the sheepmen were. They had also started in to organize a series of nine meetings of the cattlemen over the State. They realize the fact that this public domain is going to come under some kind of control, probably Federal control, and they are very vitally interested, and they are with the woolgrowers in any policy that can be worked out that we think can be presented to the Senate committee and in turn get them to recommend to Congress. I was very much surprised and very much pleased with the manner in which the cattlemen expressed themselves in regard to working with the woolgrowers. I think that covers it all, does it not, Mr.

Chairman?

Mr. ED GOODING. Mr. Bacon, we would like to hear from you. Mr. BACON. Mr. Chairman, just what do you want me to talk about. I am talked out.

Mr. GOODING. These gentlemen here did not hear what you said. Mr. BACON. I don't think I can add very much. The whole situation as I see it is this, that there is going to be some regulation on this public domain. There is no question about that in my mind. And if the stockmen of the West do not take it into their own hands to help make the laws that cover this regulation the Federal Government is going to do it anyway, and we won't have any part in it. In that case we would be in one hell of a fix, because if this outside range goes under the same administration and should be handled the same way as the Forest Service you can readily see where we are going to get off. As I look at this, about the only thing the Government should say to the stockman is this: "It is against the law for you to injure or destroy this forage. As long as you don't destroy it, you can run 4,000 or 6,000 sheep on this range, but if you break the law you will be prosecuted and suffer accordingly." I think if the stockman is held responsible for that range he would be sensible enough to take care of it. In most cases it would be taken care of better than it is under the present administration of the forest. In a great many cases we have got a lot of rangers in these forests that were not educated for that kind of work and they haven't any practical knowledge of livestock, and we don't want these people as they are to administer this public domain.

Now, then, if the control were put under the Interior Department I am in favor of this, because I believe we are entitled to some relief, and I think, as Mr. Gooding suggests, we might get some in that way, and it might be as wise a plan as we could get. In these other meetings the motions did not recommend any specific department, but only that we be given a court of appeals and legalized rights. I think if the stockmen get together they ought to be

heard in Congress. It is the first time I have ever heard of a committee from Congress coming out here to look into the livestock conditions. It indicates that they are very vitally interested and are ready to listen to us. Now, if we can get together I think they will listen to us and give us as nearly as they can what we want.

Mr. ED GOODING. Is there anything else? We have motions here that were adopted at the Dubois and Mackey meeting.

(Motions read by Mr. Gooding, the chairman.)

Mr. FRED GOODING. I move that there be a committee appointed by the chairman to draft some regulations or resolutions along the line you have there from the other two towns and present them at once, somewhat similar to what they have there; we can change them, of course, if necessary.

Mr. DARRAH. I second that.

Mr. GOODING. All those in favor say "Aye."

(Ayes voted unanimously.)

Mr. FRED GOODING. I am opposed to keeping it under the Forest System. I think we want a new deal all the way around if we are going to get any satisfaction.

Mr. ED GOODING. I appoint Mr. Fred Gooding, Mr. James Farmer, and Mr. Martin Curran to serve on this committee.

(Recess called at 4.30.)

Meeting called to order at 4.40 by Mr. Ed Gooding, chairman.

Mr. FRED GOODING. Mr. Chairman, we have presented to the secretary a few changes in the motions adopted at the Dubois and Mackey meetings which we are going to have the secretary read.

Secretary read the following motions:

"Be it resolved, (1) That it is the consensus of opinion of this meeting that we want the public domain put under some form of Government control.

"(2) That the forest and the public domain be administered by the same bureau or department of the Government.

"(3) That the grazing rights on both the forest and the public domain be legalized.

"(4) That a board of appeals be created by Congress, members of which shall be appointed by the Secretary of Interior, and all reports shall be sent to him for confirmation. This board shall be made up of one man of not less than 10 years' practical experience from each of the 11 western public-domain and forest-reserve States, who shall be paid a per diem and expenses.

"(5) That it is our recommendation that for efficiency, economy, and the elimination of friction the administrative offices of the bureau having control of the forest and public domain be established in the Western States."

Mr. FRED GOODING. Mr. Secretary, the forest reserve in one place is made up of 11 Western States and forest reserve States. There are more than 11 forest reserve States. They have a lot of forest reserve in the Eastern States. I think that should be changed.

Mr. ED GOODING. Change it to 11 western grazing States and public-domain States. You have heard these resolutions; what is your pleasure?

Mr. STREITZ, Richfield. I move these motions be adopted.

Mr. DARRAH. I second that.

Mr. BACON. I think that it should provide further that the members of the board of appeals should be actively engaged in the livestock business at the time they are serving. Conditions change so rapidly that some of the oldtimers who are not actively in the business can not keep up with them. Mr. FRED GOODING. I think that is a good suggestion.

Mr. FARMER. That is agreeable.

Mr. CURRAN. Agreeable.

Mr. ED GOODING. I will ask the secretary to read these resolutions again. (Secretary reread the resolutions.)

"Be it resolved, (1) That it is the consensus of opinion of this meeting that we want the public domain put under some form of Government control. "(2) That the forest and the public domain be administered by the same bureau or department of the Government.

"(3) That the grazing rights on both the forest and the public domain be legalized.

"(4) That a board of appeals be created by Congress, members of which shall be appointed by the Secretary of the Interior, and all reports shall be sent to him for confirmation. This board shall be made up of one man actively engaged in the livestock business of not less than 10 years' practical

experience from each of the 11 western grazing and public-land States, who shall be paid a per diem and expenses.

"(5) That it is our recommendation that for efficiency, economy, and the elimination of friction the administrative offices of this bureau having control of the forest and public domain be established in the Western States."

Mr. ED GOODING. Any further discussion on these resolutions? Ready for the question? All those in favor of the resolutions as read by the secretary Say "Aye."

Unanimously carried.

Mr. ED GOODING. Any further discussion? If not, the meeting will stand adjourned.

(Meeting adjourned.)

PROCEEDINGS OF THE HEARING ON PUBLIC LANDS HELD AT SODA SPRINGS BY THE IDAHO WOOL GROWERS' ASSOCIATION, WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON, JUNE 10, 1925

Meeting called to order at 2.10 by Mr. Rich, chairman.

Present: Twenty-nine.

Mr. Rich introduced Mr. Donald McLean, who discussed and quoted arguments for and against the different methods for handling public lands, as given by different men in previous hearings.

Mr. RICH. The meeting will now be open for a general discussion of this matter, and we would be glad to hear from any of you who care to start it. Mr. Transtrum, do you have an opinion?

ME TRANSTRUM. No; I have not.

Mr. STEADMAN. I would like to ask the gentlemen how this would apply to me in the State of Idaho and the State of Utah. We trail down in the fall and back in the spring. How would it affect me if my sheep in the summer and winter time on the public domain were in the State of Idaho and the State of Utah?

Mr. MCLEAN. That has been brought up at most of these meetings, and the best example that I know was one fellow who some years bought hay at Rupert and other years he bought it near his headquarters, depending on the season, and the consensus of opinion was that the way that would be worked out was that they wouldn't be allotted a little narrow strip to trail over, but it would be handled under an association and would be leased to an association, a good deal like the Idaho Citizens' Grazing Association, and then your association would make whatever rules were needed. Understand we are not making any rules or regulations ourselves. Those are details to be worked out after the law goes into effect.

Mr. STEADMAN. I understand you are not making any rules and regulations, but I just wanted a little information.

Mr. MCLEAN. That is about the only way you can do that is practical. You can't have allotments, except in some cases. Up by Emmett there are about 8 or 10 men who do have allotments that are real allotments. They never interfere with each other.

Mr. STEADMAN. This is a great problem. We trail from here to the American Desert, and sometimes we trail back in the fall of the year and it is pretty dry and probably there is just one water hole out here and the others are probably 25 or 30 miles away, and there might be 25 or 30 sheepmen water at one place. They can't make allotments. I wonder if that would affect me when in the State of Idaho and down in Utah. My rights should be equal, shouldn't they, in both States, as I have been in Utah 25 or 30 years and I have been in Idaho for 25 or 30 years?

Mr. RICH. They should be.

Mr. MCLEAN. If it went to the Government you would have more of a chance to get it unified than if it went to the State.

Mr. RICH. Anyone else that would care to state an opinion or ask a question on this matter? Mr. Finch, haven't you something to say on this matter? Mr. FINCH. I think not, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MCLEAN. Whether you would like to have it under Government control or State control?

Mr. STEADMAN. I believe as far as I am concerned I would rather have Government than State. My idea is if the State were to control it there would be just a few that would get the whole range. That is my opinion.

Mr. RICH. Is there anyone else who doesn't agree with Mr. Steadman?

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