Capt. VAN CISE. Yes, sir; it would simply be hearsay. I was told by an officer that there were 17 enlisted on the 1st day of November, when we went into the district.

Chairman WALSH. I mean in those 32 that were at Ludlow on the 20th. Capt. VAN CISE. Somewhere between 5 and 10.

Chairman WALSH. How were the troops paid, sheltered, and provisioned after the State funds were no longer available?

Capt. VAN CISE. Well, all the time we were down there in the field we received food and shelter. The pay was very late in coming to us, but we finally got it after returning to Denver.

Chairman WALSH. Was there any line drawn between the time the State funds ran short and the end of the service?

Capt. VAN CISE. When we were in the field first we were paid with certifi cates of indebtedness, which we immediately cashed at bank. Later, we got certificates of indebtedness and had to place them wherever we could, because there was no money to meet them.

Chairman WALSH. Did the troops at Ludlow, or elsewhere, to your knowledge, use machine guns or other weapons owned by the mining company? Capt. VAN CISE. I think every machine gun that belonged to the coal operators was taken up at the time we took up the arms from the mine operators. The mine operators turned in, as I understand it, every gun, and the rifles and pistols were sent to Trinidad and the machine guns were sent back to the company from which they procured them.

Chairman WALSH. Did any machine guns remain in the field, or come into the field again after they had been taken from the mining companies?

Capt. VAN CISE. There were only two machine guns that I saw, one at Aguilar and one at Berwind Canyon.

Chairman WALSH. Have you ascertained any facts as to the fire at Ludlow since your investigation as a military committee?

Capt. VAN CISE. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Please detail them.

Capt. VAN CISE. Why, the facts corroborated the story of the fight as we gave it in our report.

Chairman WALSH. What new and additional facts did you gather?

Capt. VAN CISE. Simply in regard to the killing of these three prisoners. Chairman WALSH. What were these, please-those that you gathered after your investigation?

Capt. VAN CISE. Why, they all pointed to a murder of the prisoners. Chairman WALSH. Do you feel free to state why you did not subpoena Mr. Low, the pump man at Ludlow?

Capt. VAN CISE. Why, I guess it would be a fair answer to that question, that Mr. Low-I am pretty certain Mr. Low was called before us.

Chairman WALSH. You are pretty sure he was called before you?

Capt. VAN CISE. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Did you subpoena any other railroad men that were there at that time?

Capt. VAN CISE. I don't believe I can tell you in regard to that, Mr. Walsh. Chairman WALSH. Your committee, or your commission-the commission consisting of yourself, Maj. Boughton, and Capt. Danks did not make any finding holding any particular person responsible for the murder of these prisoners, if it was a murder?

Capt. VAN CISE. No. The only finding we made was that Lieut. Linderfelt hit Tikas over his head with a rifle; and we said the evidence before us was conflicting as to whether these men were compelled to run or were shot while trying to escape.

Chairman WALSH. Were the homes of the mine officers in any instances searched for arms when the miners' houses were searched?

Capt. VAN CISE. Of the mine officers?

Chairman WALSH. Yes, sir.

Capt. VAN CISE. You see, in the early part of the strike I did not have command over any coal company camps, so I could not state.

Chairman WALSH. Well, I will ask you in the searches you made did you search any localities in which superintendents or other mine officers resided?,i Capt. VAN CISE. No; I did not. I searched only the town of Ludlow and the colony of Ludlow.

Chairman WALSH. Did you make any searches except under order?

Capt. VAN CISE. Yes; I searched one, not under orders. When I went out to investigate the alleged robbery of a farmhouse, I followed the tracks to this Greek ranch, about 10 miles east of Ludlow; and in searching for the other stolen goods I found these rifles and revolvers.

Chairman WALSH. Were there any houses at Ludlow in which mine superintendents or pit bosses lived?

Capt. VAN CISE. NO. You see Ludlow is just a railroad hamlet. It is a shipping point for the coal companies that have their camps in the vicinity. Chairman WALSH. I wish you would state what you observed as to the social and political conditions of the mining towns and camps in which you were located with your company in the strike down there?

Capt. VAN CISE. I had Hastings, Delagua, Forbes, and Rameyville, those four camps under my immediate control at some time or other. I observed Aguilar, the Southwestern mine, and the three camps up Berwind Canyon. The camps of the Victor-American, at Hastings and Delagua, I believe, were by far the best camps in that neighborhood. The houses seemed to be better, the canyon was more open, and they seemed to be much cleaner. With the exception of the C. F. & I. camp at Berwind, most of the houses were frame. In Berwind they had concrete houses that seemed to be very well built, and a superior class of house. In Delagua about half the houses were brick. They impressed me. as the ordinary type of miner's houses, except at Forbes. Forbes is a pretty narrow, dirty canyon, and a place where they have to look around very carefully to find a location for a house. The living facilities, I should say, on the whole, were fair. The school facilities are at least good. I believe that in the coal camps the real cause for complaint of the miners is the unAmerican conduct of the closed camps; that is, the camps are absolutely closed to anybody but the people that the companies wished to have in the camp. Consequently there is very little freedom of action.

Chairman WALSH. Were English-speaking strikers in the town or in the camp in the tent colony?

Capt. VAN CISE. There might have been a few strikers in Ludlow town; I don't know of any. Nearly all of them were in the colony itself.

Chairman WALSH. That included both English-speaking and non-Englishspeaking strikers?

Capt. VAN CISE. Yes; and when we took a census of the men in the colony, we took the names of all the men in the colony; and I think that out of 270 men we found only about 5 Americans. The rest were foreigners.

Chairman WALSH. Could a good many of the foreigners speak English or not? Capt. VAN CISE. I should say about half of them could.

Chairman WALSH. I wish you would state anything else you observed as to the political and social phenomena that existed in these camps. When I interrupted you you were speaking of the closed condition of the camp being a source of irritation to these men, as they expressed it to you.

Capt. VAN CISE. After I got back from the field I wrote an article for my own files, so I have memoranda available, and I will read you an extract or two from that, as to my views:

"On the merits of the strike much can be said on both sides. A premise to any fair statement must be that there is little law in Las Animas and Huerfano Counties, where operators and miners are participants. Personal injury cases against operators are doomed to defeat. The sheriff's office is the employee of the corporation, and representative government exists only on paper. The coal mines are in narrow, barren canyons, almost devoid of water, on lands owned or leased by the companies. The houses in the main are good, the majority electric lighted, and the rents are reasonable. The company stores sell at the same price as the same goods sell in Trinidad, and carry stocks far larger and more diversified than do the independent traders adjoining the coal camps. The school facilities are at least average, and the school building is the usual place for the moving-picture shows, dances, and other entertainments of the camp; but it is not open for any assembly of men to discuss social welfare, wages, or law enforcement, nor are the men allowed to go there for that purpose. The employment of mixed nationalities also keeps the men from gathering."

My general impression down there, Mr. Walsh, was that in regard to violence the strikers had more to gain from violence than the operators. The operators have to risk having their mines burned up, their properties destroyed, and their men run off, whereas the strikers had little to lose. And in a great majority of the cases the violence indulged in by the strikers was before I arrived in

the field, but I find from observation that in nearly every canyon the situation was different. In one place you would find a mining company that was very good toward its men, and toward the strikers in the vicinity; that is, the mine guards stayed on its own property and behaved themselves. At the very next canyon you might find where the mine guards had gone out and precipitated trouble, and in one place you would find that the strikers had started the trouble. It seemed to be pretty nearly six of one and a half dozen of the other. Later, it seemed like the strikers had more of an ascendency and were trying to push on their advantage.

After the Battle of Ludlow, however, there was hardly an instance in which the strikers were not the aggressors. The case I know of personally, and the only case I know of personally, was the Battle of Forbes. The night before the Battle of Forbes we were in camp at Ludlow and reliable information was received that the Forbes camp would be attacked by the strike breakers at dawn. Several of the officers went to the officer in command of the camp and begged for permission to take their company down and protect the camp; and we were told that under the orders of the governor no troops could go south of Ludlow. The next morning about 4 o'clock we were awakened by the rattle of small arms and a machine gun. That was very audible, coming from the direction of Forbes, about 5 miles away. The fighting was quite intense for a while and then died down. We could not go to the rescue of that camp. That resulted in an immense amount of dissatisfaction among the men in the camp. Our companies all felt that they were being condemned as cowards by the people there, and the Rocky Mountain Fuel Co. felt that they would be murdered and no effort made to protect them in any way, shape, or form.

Chairman WALSH. I want to ask you this question: Is it your opinion that the employment of guards led to violence on the part of the strikers, or that violence on the part of the strikers led to the employment of the guards? In other words, which was the cause and which the effect?

Capt. VAN CISE. I was not down there, of course, until the 28th of October. All that happened before that is simply from hearsay and from what I tried to find out. It looked like the situation or condition in nearly every canyon differed. In some canyons it looked like employment of the guards had precipitated trouble, and in other canyons it looked like the procuring of rifles by the strikers was the cause of the trouble.

Chairman WALSH. Do you know what the political and social powers of the mine superintendent in the various camps are?

Capt. VAN CISE. Well, the mine superintendent was the absolute boss of the closed camps. The camp marshal carried out his orders, was the police force, the health officer, and could arrest various parties and bring them before the justice of the peace; and I always thought that the strikers had a just complaint on being ordered out of the canyons. Of course, it was coal-company property, private property. But they had practically no rights, once they got on the private property of the coal operators.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Will you repeat that, please? I did not catch

that.

Capt. VAN CISE. I said I thought that the strikers had a just complaint on the closed camps of the operators. When you get in a closed camp you are either allowed to own no property, or if you own any your rights in the camp are absolutely subject to the coal companies. Now, the coal companies are in some cases, of course, tyrannical, and in other cases they are fair-very fair; but it makes a very bad situation. If any person is in the camp where the company owns it, if he doesn't do as wanted he can be ordered out of the camp. I always thought that the strikers had a very just grievance in the un-American operation of the coal camps.

Chairman WALSH. Are the employees permitted to maintain their lodges and other societies?

Capt. VAN CISE. There was one lodge of Montenegrins at Berwind. I never made any investigation, but I know one lodge was maintained there, or had been.

Chairman WALSH. I am going to ask you a general question: In your opinion, did constitutional democratic government exist in those camps in which you were located, as you understand it from your days at school and from your observation since you have left school?

Capt. VAN CISE. It did, except that the sheriff, as nearly as I could judge, was absolutely dominated by the coal companies in Las Animas County. I was not in Huerfano County and could not say. The sheriff was absolutely friendly

with the company and hostile toward the strikers. Of course, he gave for his excuse for that that the strikers had been continuously assaulting his deputies. But in a coal camp it don't exist in the full sense of the term, because the men are not free to act as they see fit.

Chairman WALSH. I will ask you the question: If the civil or property rights of the individual, as known in the other parts of the United States, exist in those closed camps?

Capt. VAN CISE. I do not believe so. I do not believe that property was sold to any of the employees.

Chairman WALSH. Please state what you know, if anything, about the treatment of prisoners by the military authorities.

Capt. VAN CISE. I know nothing, except the prisoners that I actually had. Chairman WALSH. And your treatment of those prisoners was proper, as you describe it?

Capt. VAN CISE. I think so. We compelled them to work, of course.

Chairman WALSH. Do you know by hearsay or by any means whether or not what is commonly known in police circles as the "third degree" was ever administered to prisoners that had been arrested and charged with crime, in an effort to force them to confess?

Capt. VAN CISE. There has been all sorts of assertions on both sides of that, that I have heard; but nothing I would express an opinion on.

Chairman WALSH. Nothing you think of sufficient credit to detail to the commission?

Capt. VAN CISE. No; I have heard so much on both sides. There has been a lot of talk on both sides. I know nothing from my own personal knowledge in any way, shape, or form.

Chairman WALSH. Were you ever directed to recruit mine guards for your company?

Capt. VAN CISE. No, sir.

Chairman WALSH. You will be excused.

(Mr. van Cise submitted an article entitled, "The Colorado Strike Situation," which is printed as “Van Cise Exhibit No. 2.")

We will call Maj. Danks.

TESTIMONY OF MAJ. WILLIAM C. DANKS.

Chairman WALSH. State your name, please.

Maj. DANKS. William C. Danks.

Chairman WALSH. What is your business?

Maj. DANKS. Attorney at law.

Chairman WALSH. How long have you lived in the State of Colorado?
Maj. DANKS. About eight years.

Chairman WALSH. Are you a member of the Denver bar?

Maj. DANKS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. HOW long have you resided in Denver?

Maj. DANKS. Eight years.

Chairman WALSH. Were you ever a member of the National Guard?
Maj. DANKS. Of Colorado?

Chairman WALSH. Yes, sir; of Colorado.

Maj. DANKs. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. What is your connection with the guard? What is your

rank?

Maj. DANKS. Well, I have been a member all the way from private up to major.

Chairman WALSH. Did you go out with the first troops that were called out by the governor?

Maj. DANKS. In the last strike?

Chairman WALSH. Yes.

Maj. DANKS. Yes, sir; I did.

Chairman WALSH. Was that your first service in a strike region?

Maj. DANKS. Well, I would hardly say so. I was in the Spanish-American War, and, in fact, have been connected with the National Guard of Illinois and of Colorado ever since 1898.

Chairman WALSH. Well, confining it to Colorado, was that your first experience in the industrial disturbance?

Maj. DANKS. My first experience; yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Where were you detailed to go?

Maj. DANKS. Hastings and Delagua.

Chairman WALSH, I wish you would state briefly your opinion as to the cause of feeling that came up between the National Guard and the strikers leading up to the trouble at Ludlow.

Maj. DANKS. I don't know that I am in a position to say much on that subject. Chairman WALSH. Have you any opinion of what caused the feeling between the strikers and the National Guard?

Maj. DANKS. I have some opinion, but it would be based entirely upon what others have told me. My duties did not bring me in contact with the mine guards nor with the militia in the field at all.

Chairman WALSH. What were your duties?

Maj. DANKS. I was assigned to the judge advocate's department and spent part of my time at Trinidad and part at Walsenburg, so really I did not have a chance to associate with other-with either of the elements as they came in contact with each other.

Chairman WALSH. To your knowledge, were there any mine guards, strike breakers, or other employees of the operators in the National Guard? Maj. DANKS. I think it is generally understood there were a few.

Chairman WALSH. Was protest made by yourself or any officer of the National Guard against the enlistment in the National Guard of mine guards, strike breakers, or other employees of the operators?

Maj. DANKS. There was none by me.

Chairman WALSH. Did you hear of any being made by anyone else?

Maj. DANKS. I could not say that I did.

Chairman WALSH. Were you acquainted with the personnel of the National Guard units at the Ludlow on April 20?

Maj. DANKS. No, sir; I was not.

Chairman WALSH. Did the troops at Ludlow use the machine gun owned by the Colorado Fuel & Iron Co.?

Maj. DANKS. Our investigation disclosed that they did.

Chairman WALSH. Have you ever been asked to accept mine guards, strike breakers, or other employees of the operators for enlistment in your company? Maj. DANKS. Not that I know of. I did not have charge of my company. I was relieved and never went back to the company.

Chairman WALSH. To your knowledge was anyone ever requested to accept guards or strike breakers for enlistment in any company you are familiar with? Maj. DANKS. That is entirely foreign to me-it was at that time-and I am not advised.

Chairman WALSH. Did you know anything of an armored automobile owned by the Colorado Fuel & Iron Co. that was said to have been used by officers of the Colorado National Guard in the strike zone?

Maj. DANKS. I understand that the automobile used by the judge advocate's department that I was assigned to was at one time an armored car. There was no indication of it, but I have understood it generally.

Chairman WALSH. Were you acquainted with Lieut. Linderfelt?
Maj. DANKS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. What sort of a man was he-Lieut. Linderfelt-E. K. Linderfelt?

Maj. DANKS. So far as I have known him, he is a well-educated man, quite an intelligent-appearing man. He had had considerable experience, I think, in Mexico, and I think was quite well posted in guerilla warfare and the like of that.

Chairman WALSH. What were his personal characteristics, if you know. Maj. DANKS. Personally, so far as I know anything about him by being in contact with him, he was a gentleman in every respect. At times he would use profane language, but there may have been provocation.

Chairman WALSH. Did you ever protest to the general that Lieut. Linderfelt was not a proper man to be in a position of authority in the National Guard? Maj. DANKS. Not in those words; no. I did at one time take it up with Col. Boughton-I took up with him to the effect that, not knowing whether Lieut. Linderfelt was guilty of charges made or not, yet for the good of the service it might be well to eliminate him for the good of the service.

Chairman WALSH. When was that?

Maj. DANKS. Long before the Battle of Ludlow. That is, when we were in the field.

Chairman WALSH. HOW is that?