laboring men must take a stronger part in the conduct of governmental affairs. Now, in respect to the workings out of the problems of safety particularly, I think that in working out those problems something of the method adopted in Colorado, as I understand, in drawing up the coal-mining code is good. In the first place the code that was drawn up was upon a basis drawn up by the employers and employees largely, so I understand. I don't know the details. That subsequently there was a conference between the employers and employees, and that they worked together for some period of time, and as the result of that conference they drew up our present coal-mining code, which, my information from both sides is, is a good one. Now, that same system, I believe, is in vogue in Wisconsin. They have an advisory board of employers and employees working in conjunction with each other. And in regard to the rules of safety under which the employer must conduct his business and under which the employee is to work, they work those up. In regard to that advisory commission I understand that in the original selection of that nonpartisan board they went to both the representatives of the employers and of the employees and requested that they put upon it the strongest and biggest men they had in the State; that they worked together for a number of months and worked out their methods and their safety appliances. Now, as a result of that the employers and employees united and agreed. They adopted the rule that there would be no rule adopted which would have the force and effect of law unless by unanimous agreement; and they fought it back and forth and finally adopted a basis of rules which, upon going to different people there, and I went to both classes as much as I could and asked them about it, I found was uniformly satisfactory to employer and employee. Now, it seems to me that is one thing we must get to and that is the system that they adopted there of asking representatives of both classes to serve absolutely without pay and without expense, thus getting the most patriotic men to devote their time to it. Now, it seems to me the strong men of the State must actively connect themselves with the business affairs of the State; that when we have a problem, instead of standing off and away from it or instead of leaving it to some one who knows nothing about it, we must get to dealing with that problem the active and strong men upon both sides. Now, as the result of that, they have furnished certain statistics showing that their whole object has been largely accomplished. They say there are certain inevitable accidents, but that they have been able to prevent many others, and they show the percentage of prevention-some 30 per cent, I think. Now, their whole effort along that line, or at least their main effort, is the proposition of prevention. Now, I don't know, but it seems to me that we are acting on the principle that the interests of labor and capital are adverse. Now, I don't want this discussion Chairman WALSH. Go ahead, Governor. In a Gov. CARLSON. It seems to me the interests of labor and capital are identical; that we must go upon that theory instead of upon the theory of stirring up differences and disrupting those two forces; and we must adopt a system of law whereby they will necessarily work together. Now, in the first instance, in order to accomplish that, we can not have a partisan representation of either side. Now, a partisan representative of the laboring classes is fatal to them because that immediately gets them into politics; and a partisan representative of the other side is fatal also to them. A partisan representative on either side does not have the confidence of the other side. matter that is so spirited and where the conditions are so vital you can not get it. But the system they have adopted there of having a commission of men that are nonpartisan, and truly so, and who, instead of working upon the proposition that labor and capital are necessarily opposed one to the other, believe in the proposition that their interests are united and identical, and work right along that line, such men get the benefit of the representatives of the employers and of the representatives of the laborers. They get the benefit of this antagonism and this discussion, and out of it they work and cooperate and get acquainted with each other and become more definitely identified with the government. And it seems to me that there is something along that line that is worthy of the consideration, and the serious consideration, of the laboring people and of the employers in this State. Now, I do not believe, for instance, in taking a law from another State and bringing it here. We have our own problems and we have our people who know our problems. We have many employers here who are seriously endeavoring to solve this question; and it seems to be that the thing which we should do is to give them that opportunity of solution-something along that lineand they can accomplish a great deal. And then another thing. Take and read the different reports that you get, for instance, in regard to any strike and it seems like the two sides do not understand each other, either that, or there is an attempt on the part of one or both to misrepresent a great many facts. But if there was a representative body working in conjunction with the Government, there would not be any reason for a misunderstanding of those facts; and that is the reason that I think you can accomplish a great deal, and I think it is in the way of obtaining better safety appliances in this State. Chairman WALSH. Have you paid any attention, Governor, to the question of workmen's compensation and placing the burden of the increased cost of the employees upon the industry as a whole? Gov. CARLSON. I have. And I think a great deal of our waste, I put it, not only upon that ground, but upon the ground of elimination of a great deal of waste. For instance, there are the delays and the expenses of the courts which I think can largely be obviated; and I believe that there is a great deal of work that can be done along this line, and I think there should be every effort made along this line. Chairman WALSH. Are you aware of the fact testified to by the last witness that there is a commission which has existed in the State of Colorado for something like four years and which is supposed to be working upon this subject? Gov. CARLSON. I am aware of that now, and I think I heard of that before; but I was aware of it before the time of this witness's testimony. Chairman WALSH. Have you studied the workmen's compensation acts of other States and made any inquiry into the operation of the same? Governor CARLSON. I have. Chairman WALSH. Have you some definite ideas as to what is desirable in that respect? Gov. CARLSON. I have. Chairman WALSH. If so, state them. Gov. CARLSON. Well, I think that there should be-that the workmen's compensation act should be administered through such a body as I have designated, and that that is a matter that should be worked out by employers and employees, first, by way of investigation, and finally in the drawing up of an act. I think in the very drawing of the act that the employers and employees should cooperate to get one that is fair, and that eliminates the waste and expense and gives adequate and prompt remedies to those who are injured and properly protects the employers. Chairman WALSH. Do I understand that you have made a first-hand investigation of the Wisconsin industrial council? You have been there, have you? Gov. CARLSON. Yes, sir. Chairman WALSH. Have you any other suggestions that you could make to the commission that you think might tend to do away with such controversies as exist in the State on account of their interstate character, as you heard suggested by Gov. Ammons this morning? Gov. CARLSON. Well, in regard to certain parts of the controversy I have definite ideas Chairman WALSH (interrupting). I wish you would state those, Governor. Gov. CARLSON. I just want to say one word in respect to the question of violence. I think this: I think that all officers and all people and all organizations should be united upon the proposition that violence is not justifiable by either labor or capital, and that upon that question there should not be any difference of opinion. Now, that is a proposition that I believe the people of Colorado are absolutely determined upon; and I think if all the officers-while they may differ in regard to the merits of an industrial dispute and may have different solutions in regard to that-there can not be any difference upon that one question; and so that part of it of course is a serious part and prevents us from getting anywhere. It has cost us three-quarters of a million dollars and many lives on both sides. That is a matter on which there should be no difference and on which everyone should unite. Now, if we are not united upon that proposition and if we seek to go to the original merits of the question when violence enters into it, I think we are making a mistake, just the same as I think we ought not to go and talk about the cause of a fire when a house is on fire. Now, that is all I have to say upon the question of violence, and I have simply to say this, that I believe that among our officers connected with such a situation there should not be any dispute or difference when it comes to the ex 38819-S. Doc. 415, 64-1-vol 7--30 ecution of laws and the prevention of violence, and that labor and capital under no circumstances should justify it; and that if either or both do, the public should not tolerate it at all. Now, that is the only way we are going to sustain the Government. I don't think there should be any division one way or the other on that. Chairman WALSH. Excuse me, please. At this point we will stand adjourned until to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock. Will you kindly resume the stand tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock? (Thereupon, at 4.30 o'clock p. m., the proceedings were adjourned until the following morning, Thursday, December 3, 1914, at 10 o'clock.) DENVER, COLO., Thursday, December 3, 1914-10 a. m. Present Chairman Walsh, Commissioners Ballard, O'Connell, Lennon, Garretson, Commons, and Weinstock. Chairman WALSH. The commission will please be in order. Gov. Carlson. TESTIMONY OF GOV. GEORGE A. CARLSON-Continued. Chairman WALSH. NOW, Governor, is there anything further that you desire to state? GOV. CARLSON. I think not, Mr. Walsh. Chairman WALSH. Very well. You will be excused, then; thank you. TESTIMONY OF MR. JAMES DALRYMPLE. Chairman WALSH. State your name, please. Mr. DALRYMPLE. James Dalrymple. Chairman WALSH. What is your occupation? Mr. DALRYMPLE. State coal-mine inspector. Chairman WALSH. How long have you been State coal-mine inspector? Chairman WALSH. Who has the appointment of the State mine inspector in the State of Colorado? Mr. DALRYMPLE. The governor. Chairman WALSH. You are an appointee of the present governor? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Yes, sir. Chairman WALSH. What was your business prior to holding your present position? Mr. DALRYMPLE. I was deputy inspector for 15 months. Chairman WALSH. And prior to that time what was your business? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, coal mining. Chairman WALSH. Coal mining? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Yes, sir. Chairman WALSH. How long have you been in that business? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, I have been engaged in mining for nearly 40 years. Mr. DALRYMPLE. Pennsylvania, Colorado, New Mexico, and Washington. Mr. DALRYMPLE. Since 1885. Chairman WALSH. What length of time have you lived in the other States which you have mentioned? Mr. DALRYMPLE. I lived three years and nine months—well, I have been absent from Colorado about two years since 1885. Prior to coming to Colorado I spent three years and nine months in Pennsylvania. Chairman WALSH. How long were you in Washington? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Six months. Chairman WALSH. I wish you would state as briefly as you can the nature of your duties as State mine inspector. Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, the nature of our duties is to attend to the sanitary and safety conditions in coal mines. That is about as brief as I can make it. Chairman WALSH. I wish you would explain how the general conditions of the coal mines of Colorado compare with the coal mines of other States as to accidents and means to prevent accidents? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, I have not compared Colorado with any particular State with relation to fatal accidents or nonfatal accidents. Chairman WALSH. How do they compare generally, if you can make a comparison? Mr. DALBYMPLE. The only comparison I have made is comparing Colorado with United States as a whole. Chairman WALSH. Give us the result of that, if you please. Mr. DALRYMPLE. Here is Table 4 of the 1913 report of the State inspector of coal mines, showing the number killed per thousand employed and per million short tons mined and production per death, short tons. Chairman WALSH. A little louder, if you please, Mr. Dalrymple, and not quite so fast. Mr. DALRYMPLE. Showing the number killed per thousand employed per 1,000,000 short tons mined and production per death short tons for the years 1910, 1911, and 1912. That is as late as I could get it in the United States. Now, in the year 1910 in the United States they killed 3.92 per 1,000 employed, and they killed 5.66 per 1,000,000 tons produced, and the production per death of short tons mined for the same year was 177,000. In 1911 they killed 3.73 per 1,000 employed, 5.48 per 1,000,000 tons produced, and the production per death of short tons for that year was 183,000. In 1912 they killed 3.15 per 1,000 employed, 4.29 per 1,000.000 tons produced, and 233,000 tons per life lost. Now, this table for the State of Colorado is for the years 1911, 1912, and 1913; that is the comparative table for the State of Colorado. The one I have just read is for the years 1910, 1911, and 1912. The comparative table for the State of Colorado shows for the year 1911 they killed 6.35 per 1,000 employed, 8.92 per 1,000,000 tons produced, and they produced 122,860.20 tons per life lost. In 1912 they killed 7.055 per 1,000 employed, they killed 8.90 per 1,000,000 tons produced, and they produced 112,417.84 tons per life lost. For the year 1913 they killed 8.60 per 1,000 employed, 11.86 per 1,000,000 tons produced, and they produced 84,263 tons per life lost. Chairman WALSH. Where did you get the figures for Colorado? Did you get them at first-hand? Mr. DALRYMPLE. I took them from the records of the office. Mr. DALRYMPLE. Yes, sir. Chairman WALSH. And gathered by your assistants during the time you have been in office, and by other employees of the State government during that time? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Those are my figures. Chairman WALSH. Have the State laws in Colorado affecting coal mines been enforced by the companies? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, by some of the companies they have been enforced to a very great extent. Chairman WALSH. Well, I would like you to give the conditions, then-just what companies have enforced them, and what companies have not enforced them, and in what respects they have not been enforced. Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, it is impossible for me to sit down and memorize each individual company; there are too many companies in this State to memorize those things. All I could give you would be in a general way. Now, with the largest of the companies we have very little trouble in having them comply with the law. They cooperate with us to a great extent in carrying out the law. The greatest trouble we have is with the small fellows. Chairman WALSH. In what way have the laws not been carried out with the small ones? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, in a great many ways. For instance, in a great many cases we find the mine foremen, even men who have been in the mines all the time, men who are considered very careful and good as mine foremen, yet they are negligent. They give their duties very little consideration; and then the conditions under which we work have not been satisfactory. We have been handicapped to such an extent that I have not felt justified in taking the action against some of those people that should have been taken, because the department has not complied with the law itself. Chairman WALSH. In what respect? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Our new law says that all men taking the position of mine foremen or mine foreman assistant, or fire boss, or mine examiner, shall be certified men, and that the board of examiners sha'l arrange to have three ex aminations to give those fellows that want to take them chance to qualify. Now only one of those examinations has been held; the other two have not been held. Consequently, there are a great many men in the State holding those positions who are not qualified because they have not had the opportunity. I have not felt justified in asking for the removal of anyone because they have not had the chance to qualify. Chairman WALSH. Where does the fault lie for the failure to have these men qualify? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, the fault lies because we haven't got the funds. The department is maintained by a tax on the coal produced. The production has decreased and the revenue has decreased and we have not had the money to hold those examinations. We have not had any help from the State. Chairman WALSH. What is the reasonable likelihood of getting the money? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, that depends upon the production. Under present conditions I would not want to commit myself as to what the outlook is. Chairman WALSH. Is there any outlook for any change in legislation to give you the revenue? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Not that I know of. Chairman WALSH. Is there any effort being made by any person to bring about such results? Mr. DALRYMPLE. In my report here I recommend that the law be amended; and that was one of the things I had in mind." Chairman WALSH. Is there any body of men in this State-any committeethat speaks for the miners, the working miners, before the legislature on subjects of this character affecting their welfare? Mr. DALRYMPLE. There isn't any, to my knowledge, only what has been done toward getting the present law. I think there was Mr. Lawson and myself and Mr. Duce appeared before the State senators and representatives. Chairman WALSH. How do you account for the failure to bring about a decrease in the number of accidents in the mining industries of the State? There seems to be quite a movement throughout the nation and a very fair result being obtained in reducing the number of accidents. Why, in your opinion, is that not true in the State of Colorado in the mining industry? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, the coal-mining industry in the State of Colorado has been given very little, if any, consideration by the State. That is the reason, in the drawing up of this new law, that the financial burden was placed on the operators instead of the State of Colorado. The force has been entirely inadequate. They have no authority-well, we have got some authority, but we are working with the same force now that we did before the new law became a law. We are working with three deputies instead of five. The territory is entirely too big. We can not do justice to ourselves or to anyone connected with the industry. Chairman WALSH. Generally speaking, how are the employees in the mines in Colorado with reference to nationality? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, I couldn't tell you only prior to the calling of the strike; and at that time the English-speaking, I think, was between 31 and 32 per cent, and there are 30 per cent Italian, and the balance in the different nations. Chairman WALSH. When these foreigners come into the mines are they, as a rule, men who had experience in coal mining elsewhere? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, that I couldn't tell you, only from my own personal observation. Chairman WALSH. That is a good way to tell it. Mr. DALRYMPLE. Yes; but, then, I haven't seen enough of them. There are a good many of them that, in my opinion, never were in a mine. Then, again, I have seen some good miners among them. Chairman WALSH. What nationality have you seen good miners among? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Well, I have seen good miners among the French and among the Italians and the Germans; I have seen good miners among all of them, I believe. Chairman WALSH. Does the employment of men unable to speak English increase the number of accidents, in your opinion? Mr. DALRYMPLE. By employing men that speak English? Chairman WALSH. Yes; by employing men who do not speak English, does that increase the number of accidents? Mr. DALRYMPLE. Oh, increase the number of accidents? |