appeared in my office to tell me that I had to do certain things within five days or he would begin a recall-start a recall petition against me-he came in the next morning I think and said he was trying to help me.

Chairman WALSH. During the time of this conference, when Secretary Wilson was present and the question of the recognition of the union came up, did or did not Secretary Wilson advise these employees to waive the question of recognition?

Gov. AMMONS. I have forgotten what the language was; but the understanding was, by both Secretary Wilson and myself-he expressed great surprise when this thing was ever brought up-that it was not to be mentioned in the conference, because we could not have gotten the conference with any understanding of that sort.

Chairman WALSH. Well, toward the close of the conference did Secretary Wilson tell them that they should waive the proposition of recognition of the union and see if they could not settle it along the other lines?

Gov. AMMONS. I have forgotten what his language was, but he rather warned these men that they should not ask too much; and he told them a story to illustrate his point. I don't mind repeating the story if you want to hear it, because it explains the situation very fully.

Chairman WALSH. Well, if it is illustrative and pleasant

GOV. AMMONS (interrupting). He said, while they were all standing at my table in front of my desk-the Secretary said it reminded him of the story of a man that hunted monkeys in South America. He said the monkeys were up in the trees, and the hunter would take rather small-mouthed bottles and fill them partly with nuts and fasten them securely to the foot of the trees. Then the hunter would go away and the monkeys would come down and put their hands down in the bottle and get them full of nuts, and then they could not get their hands out and they would not drop any of the nuts, but just squeel and hold onto those nuts until the hunter would return and get the monkey.

Chairman WALSH. Now, Governor, is there any other statement that you desire to make of your own—any voluntary statement?

Gov. AMMONS. I don't know of any; I don't recall anything. Of course, if there is anything you want, and I haven't it here, I have it in my office. Chairman WALSH. If there is anything we will ask your secretary here, and also as to those letters.

Gov. AMMONS. Yes; my secretary will furnish anything in the office that you want; and if there are any of these matters come up later before you are through that you want to ask me about, I will be very glad to furnish any information I have, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman WALSH. Commissioner Lennon asks me to ask you whether you have any knowledge as to any want of any enforcement of the laws, particularly enforcement of existing laws, in coal territory at the time you came into office and prior to the time you came into office, Governor.

GOV. AMMONS. No, sir. I had had complaints-I know I have heard in a general way that there had been a good deal of dispute over those conditions down there because of the strike and things in the past; and I recall those only as I read them in the newspapers as any other citizen would.

Chairman WALSH. You have no first-hand knowledge?

Gov. AMMONS. No. I did desire earnestly to enforce these laws as all others, and asked these gentlemen when they were talking about the strike to give me an opportunity to enforce these laws before the strike should be called. I tried to secure the enforcement of those laws. The enforcement of this present law, you know, depends upon receipts from a tax put upon the output of mines for its enforcement. We have been hampered a little bit in putting the new law into effect, but we are putting it in as fast as we can; and the man at the head of that department is a member of organized labor, and I think he has tried to be very efficient as far as I know. I know he has been earnestly endeavoring to put that law into effect. I know he has been charged with a little prejudice because he has been a member of that organization, but he has always expressed to me his very earnest desire to put the law into effect, and I have given him every assistance that I could with what means we have had with which to work. And while probably it is not perfect yet, and perhaps the law itself is not perfect yet, I think it is making great progress and that conditions are a good deal better than they were.

Chairman WALSH. Have you given any thought, Governor, so that you may make suggestions as to any amendments in the law that would make for industrial peace?

Gov. AMMONS. In this State?
Chairman WALSH. In this State.
Gov. AMMONS. Not in that law.

Here is one thing I do want to say, Mr. Chairman, and I almost forgot it. That is that this is not a local fight. If it had been I think we could have settled it. This strike was not called, and it was not financed within this State, really. That is, the causes, the main purpose for which it was called, were not local entirely; and it has been controlled and financed from outside of the State, partly on one side and almost wholly on the other. And the recommendation I have, above all other things, is what I went to Washington for. If I had been permitted to carry out my mission, it was to urge upon Congress the absolute necessity of legislation regulating national matters of this kind by national law. I can see how it is an utter impossibility for any of these weaker States here, without bankrupting themselves and bringing about a bitterness over such contests as this, that are bound to last for years and have a bad influence upon industrial and business conditions in these Western States. To illustrate this, Colorado is not a district of the mine workers' organization by itself; but I think Colorado, Utah, and New Mexico form one district, none of them unionized; and the fight started to unionize these three States; but it was not started in all three States, but started in one State at one time by a national organization with headquarters in the East, with the purpose that, if it was won in Colorado, then they would take it up in New Mexico and Utah, or vice versa. It is therefore an interstate matter.

Now, both sides to this controversy, so far as we are concerned, are wealthy. Both sides are powerful. Both sides have been financed, one of them partly and the other almost entirely, from outside of our boundaries; and locally it is an utter impossibility, no difference how hard we try to control this situation, to do so. It seems to me the most imperative duty of Congress to take charge of these great national organizations with hundreds of thousands of members, and organized capitalists on the other side, if you please, and provide some legislation that will at least assist the States in controlling such controversies in the future. Now, I am more concerned about the future than I am about the past. That is over. It has been an awful bad dream for us here. The only satisfaction I have got is that with what little knowledge I had of strike conditions from my own experience I have tried to handle it in the best way I could under the circumstances; and I realize that our States are going to be helpless in the future if this situation is not met squarely by Congress and if some legislation be not enacted by Congress to control it. I am in favor, in our own State, after having looked up what laws I could find in the country and in other countries, of a mediation act something along the line of this railway employees' act passed a year or two ago and with which doubtless you are all acquainted, and perhaps of the law in Wisconsin. That seems to suit our situation better than any other. But, I want to say this, that during the time of the special session of the legislature I was asked to enlarge my call for compulsory arbitration, and I could not find where we could make that effective, because we could not make the awards effective. I could not find anything else that would fit our particular case here where the strike was to unionize the State. When this matter was called to my attention by a committee of the legislature, I called them to come down and talk the matter over with me, and I said to them, "Now, you find something that will settle this situation here, and I will enlarge my force, if I am permitted to do so, and if not I will call the legislature directly back on leaving town and put it in effect," but they, I imagine, upon investigation were in the same position that I was, they could not find anything. And to this day I am not prepared to offer anything more than I have just now, except this. Finally, I want to say that the greatest of all is violence. I do not know anything to stop strikes, and I do not know that they should be stopped. I don't know any way to stop lockouts. I can not discover any way to compel these people to get together and force a settlement. But it does seem to me that our laws should be strengthened very much to prevent any sort of violence by either party to a dispute of the kind, and I can not understand why there should not be some way worked out by those who are experts in this matter under which industrial disputes would be settled by lawful means in the courts as well as any other kind of disputes. If we are to go upon the other basis that they are to be settled by intimidation or threats or violence that either side of the controversy can control, then it is only a question of

the strongest arm, and by a union of either side, either capital or the other, in this country, there certainly might come such a conflict, the results of which we would not want to contemplate.

And there is one other thing, Mr. Chairman, that I think is vital, and that is the press agency. I do not believe that the coming of such men as George Creel and Upton Sinclair and John Reed and Rev. Atkinson, and perhaps some others, to Colorado for their magazines was an accident. The greatest difficulty that I found here at the time after that Ludlow affair, was that; and if you have any doubt about that I hope you will go into that very fully from those on the ground.

Chairman WALSH. You wish us to go into the attitude of the press?

Gov. AMMONS. Just one or two more sentences on this. The greatest difficulty I had was the absolute misrepresentation of everything in the public press; and we were powerless either to correct it or to get the facts stated to the public. and the public excitement was simply tremendous here, and even an appeal to arms couched in crafty language that could not be prosecuted, but was understood just as well as though made in the most violent language in the world, was published by our leading papers, and apparently everything was done to excite the public; and the country was thoroughly misinformed, and is yet, for I have just been East and I find the same opinion still exists as to conditions here, and the only object that I could find in that, was creating sympathy for the purpose of raising funds to support the war.

Chairman WALSH. Anything else?

Gov. AMMONS. I don't think of anything else. If you want to ask me any questions, I will be glad to answer them.

Chairman WALSH. Is there anything else?

Gov. AMMONS. I do not think of anything else. If you want to ask me anything, I am willing to answer it.

Chairman WALSH. That is all, thank you.

GOV. AMMONS. If I think of anything Mr. Chairman, before you adjourn, I will communicate with you. I will be glad to come again if you wish. Chairman WALSH. We will be very glad to have you do so. You may be excused; thank you.

Mr. Osgood.

TESTIMONY OF MR. J. C. OSGOOD.

Mr. OSGOOD. Shall I be sworn?

Chairman WALSH. No; we do not swear the witnesses.

please.

Mr. OSGOOD. John C. Osgood.

Chairman WALSH. What is your business?

Mr. OSGOOD. I am engaged in operating coal mines.

State your name,

Chairman WALSH. And what is the name of your company, or the names of your companies?

Mr. Oscoop. The Victor-American Fuel Co.

Chairman WALSH. Are you connected as an official, director, with any other coal company?

Mr. OSGOOD. No, sir; I am not.

Chairman WALSH. How long have you been connected with that company? Mr. Oscoop. Well, that company under its present name, was organized. I think, in 1909, and predecessor companies under similar names prior to various reorganizations in connection with them date back to about 1901.

Chairman WALSH. How long have you been connected with the coal industry in the State of Colorado?

Mr. OSGOOD. About 33 years-32 years.

Chairman WALSH. With what companies have you been connected during that time?

Mr. Osgood. I organized the Colorado Fuel Co. in 1882. In 1892 it was consolidated with the Colorado Coal & Iron Co., forming the Colorado Fuel & Iron Co. I was connected with that company from 1892 until 1903, when I retired.

Chairman WALSH. Until 1903. And since that time, what companies have you been connected with?

Mr. Oscoop. The Victor-American Fuel Co.

Chairman WALSH. Now, I would like you, if you will, please--have you given personal attention to this business since 1892?

Mr. OSGOOD. I was engaged in the coal business long before that, before coming to Colorado.

Chairman WALSH. Whereabouts?

Mr. OSGOOD. My coal business prior to coming here started in 1870, in Iowa; and I was interested in coal mining operation in Illinois and Iowa until 1892, and also for a portion of the time after I came to Colorado, I still retained some of my interests in Iowa and Illinois.

Chairman WALSH. Since 1882 have you maintained your residence in Colo

rado?

Mr. OSGOOD. I think that I have maintained my legal residence in Colorado since 1882. I have been away a great deal. I have lived to some extent in New York, and to some extent abroad during the years that have elapsed. Chairman WALSH. Have you had an office or place of business here during all of that time?

Mr. OSGOOD. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Whereabouts?

Mr. OSGOOD. Well, I think that my-always in Denver.

Chairman WALSH. Always in the city of Denver?

Mr. OSGOOD. Yes; so far as the office is concerned.

Chairman WALSH. I wish, if you will, Mr. Osgood, you would give a historical sketch of the troubles that have arisen, and that have existed in the coal mining industries in Colorado, beginning with the time that you had first-hand knowledge of it.

Mr. OSGOOD. The history is comparatively brief.

The first strike of anything more than of local importance or that lasted more than a few days or a week, some local disturbance, was the strike which occurred in 1893, the so-called Debs strike, a sympathetic strike that grew out of the labor disturbances that were spread all over the country. There were no particular demands made by the coal miners of Colorado. They simply stated that they struck out of sympathy for the men that were on strike in other parts of the country. The next strike

Chairman WALSH. How extensive was that strike, Mr. Osgood?

Mr. OSGOOD. It was not at all complete. Some mines were out entirely, some mines none of the men went out, some of them worked throughout the period of disturbance and others of them were entirely closed down. It was not a complete strike, although it was quite general in different sections of the State.

Chairman WALSH. I was going to ask you, did it take in the northern and southern fields, both?

Mr. OSGOOD. I had no interest in coal mining in northern Colorado, and I do not recall at this time whether there were any mines in northern Colorado that went out. My impression is that there were not. I was then with the Colorado Fuel & Iron Co., and we had mines in almost every other section of the State, and some of these mines worked throughout the strike, and in some mines the men went out.

Chairman WALSH, Historically, Mr. Osgood, do you know anything about the strikes of 1884, 1885, and 1886, the Knights of Labor troubles?

Mr. OSGOOD. You mean in the East, or out here in this country?
Chairman WALSH. Out here.

Mr. Oscoop. I don't know of anything, except local strikes. I don't know anything that was State wide, or general strike here in those years.

Chairman WALSH, Now, in the strike of 1893, was there an organization in the field, a labor organization?

Mr. OSGOOD. No, sir.

Chairman WALSH. It was just a sympathetic strike?

Mr. OSGOOD. A sympathetic strike called on the A. R. U. This growing out of the so-called Debs strike.

Chairman WALSH. Were the militia called out in that strike?

Mr. Oscoop. Federal troops were in some cases,

Chairman WALSH. Were there fatalities, collisions between the military forces and the miners?

Mr. Osgood. Not to such an extent that they have impressed themselves upon my memory. There may have been one or two, but it was not general. Chairman WALSH. After the strike came on, was there any effort on the part of any organization, any labor organization, to organize the miners?

Mr. OSGOOD. Not at all, at that time.

Chairman WALSH. Not at all. And you say that there were no specific demands made, that it was purely a sympathetic strike?

Mr. OSGOOD. A sympathetic strike.

Chairman WALSH, How long did it last?

Mr. OSGOOD. Well, on that I am not clear in my mind, but it seems to me it was all over within 60 days; but I may be wrong about that; that is my best recollection.

Chairman WALSH. NOW, when was the next strike?

Mr. OSGOOD. The next strike occurred in 1903, in the fall of 1903, and terminated in June, 1904.

Chairman WALSH. Was there any organization in the field at that time?

Mr. OSGOOD. There was no organization, so far as I know, that had any contractual relations with the coal operators. There was an organization which was attempting to unionize the men.

Chairman WALSH. What organization?

Mr. OSGOOD, United Mine Workers of America.

Chairman WALSH. That was in the fall of 1903 until June, 1904?

Mr. OSGOOD. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. That was in the fall, was it? How extensive was that trouble?

Mr. OSGOOD. Why, it was State wide. There may have been mines that did not go out, but if so they were very few. It was a strike that in many respects was very similar to this strike of 1913-14. Demand was made that the operators should sign a contract with the United Mine Workers of America and operate their mines as closed shop-on the closed-shop principle. And the men who were called out went out just about as they did at this time. Some of the

mines, most of them remained-some of the men-and at others none of them remained. They established camps, and violence was started from the very inception of the strike, and troops were called out, and the strike was finally called off in June of 1904. That was under the presidency of John Mitchell of the United Mine Workers of America.

Chairman WALSH. Do you recall who was governor of Colorado at that time? Mr. OSGOOD. Gov. Peabody.

Chairman WALSH. Was there an attempt at that time to bring the operators and the coal men together in a conference?

Mr. OSGOOD. I do not recall at this time what efforts may have been made in that direction. I presume that there were, but I have no recollection of the details of it.

Chairman WALSH. Did your company attend a conference? Did you send a representative--the Colorado Fuel & Iron Co.?

Mr. OSGOOD. No; I was not with the company at that time, and I had not commenced any active work with the Victor-American. And in the inception of the strike I was not in Colorado. I was in Europe. And it would be true that with the inception of the strike there would be many of the details that I would not be familiar with?

Chairman WALSH. Yes.

Mr. Osgood. The strike was gradually fading away when I returned in about January or February of that year.

Chairman WALSH. Do you recall that the demands that were made at that

time

Mr. Osgood. No.

Chairman WALSH. I have it here and I will call your attention to it to refresh your memory, from the records at Washington.

Mr. OSGOOD. Yes.

Chairman WALSH. The demand at that time was for an eight-hour day, semimonthly pay day, abolition of scrip, 20 per cent increase on contract and tonnage, 2,000 pounds to constitute a ton instead of 2,400 as formerly, same wages per eight hours as for the hours that then existed, better supply of pure air as is prescribed by the State law at that time.

In a general way were those the demands that were made?

Mr. OSGOOD. I do not doubt that that is correct, but I could not recall them myself.

Chairman WALSH. Now, that was without result at all. The same general conditions existed that existed during this strike, the militia were called out, there were altercations, violence, and gradually it faded away?

Mr. OSGOOD. Yes.

Chairman WALSH. NOW, when was the next trouble?

Mr. OSGOOD. As an outgrowth of the strike of 1903-4, the group of mines in northern Colorado, which field produces about 15 per cent of the coal pro