porarily, in Colorado, and I am here to tell you I was absolutely refused any help in anything like that.

I am here also to answer any questions that you have to ask me, after making this general statement, that you wish to ask.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. The gentleman who just preceded you made the statement that all of the demands of the miners had been conceded up there sometime prior to the strike with the exception of one. A similar statement appeared from Mr. Rockefeller in the papers sometime ago, and a contradictory statement appeared from the officers of the miners. What is your knowledge of that situation?

Mr. LINDSEY. Only what they tell me. Seeing that it is necessary to have a board of arbitration to find out definitely, I can only state from hearsay, namely, what the men tell me, the wives of the men tell me, that they have no respect for the law. For instance, that forbids the employer to refuse to employ a man simply because he has been in the union. We have laws in our State forbidding blacklisting. They claim that these companies refuse to respect that law. The men claim that when they protest against the dangerous conditions in the mines, that when they insist upon their protest, that they are fired at once. I have talked to the labor inspectors out there, and they tell me that they have been refused the opportunity to investigate some of these mines notwithstanding the laws on the statute books. They tell me that the company stores are conducted in such a way that they are forced, practically, to trade at those stores, and they have many grievances in this regard that they want adjusted. I could mention others, but these occurred to me, Mr. Commissioner, that I have heard.

And on the question of wages, according to the testimony that has been furnished me, an average of between $2 and $3 a day is as much as a miner can hope to make. They claim there have been discriminations among the men as to the places that they shall work and the opportunities they shall have to work, and, indeed, I have heard so many complaints from men that have been down there, from the wives of men who have been down there, and things I have read in testimony and from matters that I think you will find on record before the investigating committee, that for these men to make a contention of that kind is certainly unjustified by the fact, or at least what purports to be the facts, and that, if you please, Mr. Commissioner, is to my mind one of the very reasons why they should consent to submit these matters to a board of arbitration. If it is true, then they have everything to gain and nothing to lose by submitting this to arbitration. I am here primarily in the inerests of the best of our people out in Colorado. I want to say, however, that this feeling does not stop with the mine workers and the men only; it is percolating up and down into all classes of society, throwing people at each other's throats when they get to discussing this unfortunate controversy, and it does no good to the peace and well-being of a State, and is a condition, a poisonous condition, that is producing this miasmatic effect, you might say, socially and politically in our State.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Judge, the law creating this commission instructs them to seek and find the underlying causes of industrial unrest and report a remedy. What do you think the commission should do with reference to that situation in Colorado or that it should report to Congress as a result of your instruction?

Judge LINDSEY. It is a mighty big question, Commissioner, to go into details. Still, I think you will have to report to Congress that there has got to be some great big changes made in the laws of property in this country, or the possession of property, or the private ownership in coal mines or other great public necessities must be changed entirely, because there must be some power that can settle disputes that are going to continue right along. Now, just what the detail of that might be would take us into all sorts of sociological discussions.

you

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Would it mean compulsory arbitration, or would Judge LINDSEY. No; I don't say that. But I do believe that in the case of the Erdman Act, recently amended providing for voluntary arbitration, and the working of that came through one of your commission, Mrs. Harriman, largely, and the work we appreciate, and I feel that the public sentiment is so powerful that in a case like this, that if we have a law in Colorado such as you have in the Erdman Act, with reference to transportation companies, that if we had a law in Colorado in reference to our coal-mining property, or with

reference to any of the other natural resources that provided for voluntary arbitration, sir, in a case like this right now, the high degree of public sentiment and public opinion in our State is so strong that neither party would dare to refuse to submit their side of this controversy to such a board.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Would you extend the authority of that law, then, to cover mines and mining?

Judge LINDSEY. Yes, sir; I think it should be, and I think the Government, Federal Government, should pass a law refusing to give title to any more lands that contain natural resources like coal, but should provide a leasing system, if you please, where the title remains in the Government, and with the right of the Government, if you please, always to settle disputes of this kind when they menace the peace and happiness of a whole State or any part of the Nation.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Did you hear the reply of your predecessor upon the stand to the question as to whether or not the inflammation of the public mind had been in any great degree allayed by the report of the military inquiry board, of which he was chairman? Did you hear the reply thereto?

Judge LINDSEY. Why, that board, in our State, among most of the people, was regarded as a huge joke.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Then public sentiment was in no sense changed by that report?

Judge LINDSEY. Absolutely none, but more or less indignation that men get together and pass judgment on themselves.

Commissioner GARRETSON. It was regarded, then, in exactly the sense that the question-one of the questions carried-that it was a case of the militia rendering a favorable report upon the acts of the militia?

Judge LINDSEY. Yes, sir.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Is there any difference of interest or action between the different classes of mine owners of the State of Colorado; that is, metalliferous or coal?

Judge LINDSEY. No; but with unions and possessions, they represent a solidarity when it comes to these questions.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Applies equally to the time when they had a uni

versal association?

Judge LINDSEY. Absolutely; just as strong as ever.

Commissioner LENNON. Judge, what has been the power of political domination in Huerfano and Las Animas Counties by the coal companies as to the election of sheriffs, coroners, prosecuting attorneys, and the other officers?

Judge LINDSEY. As a rule, with a possible few exceptions, and I can recall no exceptions now, they have been absolutely the State, absolutely the State. The sheriffs and officers of that kind were, with a few exceptions, at different times when they broke through the lines, no more than their office boys. Not as much so, because an office boy can quit, and there is difficulty even if they could quit if they wanted to.

Chairman WALSH. That is all, Judge. You will be excused. Thank you. Judge LINDSEY. I wish to thank the commission for the privilege of appearing before you.

DENVER, COLO., Wednesday, December 2, 1914-10 a. m. Chairman Walsh, Commissioners Ballard, O'Connell, Lennon, Garretson, Commons, and Weinstock.

Present

Chairman WALSH. The commission will meet each morning at 10 o'clock, be in session until 12.30, adjourn for lunch until 2, and be in session each day until 4.30, including Saturdays. The commission will now be in order,

Gov. Ammons.

Mr. BLOOD. Before the commission proceeds with its business, I was subpœnaed to be here this morning. I see Gov. Ammons here, and I want to know if I may be excused; I can come back at any time upon phone message and be here in 10 minutes.

Chairman WALSH. Mr. Dower will attend to that matter. We can accommodate you and any other witnesses who will speak to Mr. Dower, and we will arrange as closely as we can and notify you by telephone.

Mr. BLOOD. I would like to testify to-day, if you gentlemen can arrange it, as to-morrow I will have to be in court. So I would like to be called either to-day or some other day subsequent to to-morrow.

TESTIMONY OF GOV. ELIAS M. AMMONS.

Chairman WALSH. Will you be kind enough to state your full name, Gover

nor?

Gov. AMMONS. Elias M. Ammons.

Chairman WALSH. You are the governor of Colorado?

Gov. AMMONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. When did you take office, please, Governor?

Gov. AMMONS. The 14th of January, 1913.

Chairman WALSH. Prior to that time had you held any official position in

the State of Colorado?

Gov. AMMONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Please state what positions you held.

Gov. AMMONS. All of them?

Chairman WALSH. Yes, sir. Beginning with your first service to the State. Gov. AMMONS. To the State itself?

Chairman WALSH. Yes, sir.

Gov. AMMONS. I was a member of the house of representatives, a member of the State senate, a member of the live-stock inspection board and of the State board of agriculture.

Chairman WALSH. How long did you serve in the State legislature in the lower house?

Gov. AMMONS. Four years in the lower house.

Chairman WALSH. And how long in the senate?

Gov. AMMONS. Four years.

Chairman WALSH. How long in the State board of agriculture?

Gov. AMMONS. I think four years before I became governor. I am a member of that yet.

Chairman WALSH. Were you a member of that while you were in the house and in the senate?

Gov. AMMONS. No, sir; I was in the house from 1891-I was elected in 1890 the first time. I was there four years.

Chairman WALSH. What had been your business, Governor?

Governor AMMONS. I am a ranchman.

Chairman WALSH. What part of the State have you lived in?

Gov. AMMONS. Southwest of Denver until a couple of years ago, and in Middle Park.

Chairman WALSH. How long have you lived in the State of Colorado?
GOV. AMMONS. Next March it will be 44 years.

Chairman WALSH. Now, at the time of your induction into the office of governor, were there any laws which had been passed, or any proposed laws, that had to do with the industrial situation?

Gov. AMMONS. Oh, I think so, but I would not want to attempt to recite those. I would have to do it by memory, and there are others that can look that up. Chairman WALSH. I would like you to begin and state to the commission, if you please, what your first introduction was to the coal situation after becoming governor.

Gov. AMMONS. Well, my first introduction was before I became governor. Chairman WALSH. Begin at the beginning and give us your history of it. Gov. AMMONS. Well, Mr. Walsh, I would like you to ask me just what you want to know, because there is so much of this. The first thing I heard of it Mr. Lawson told me about the 1st of December, after election

Chairman WALSH. Who is Mr. Lawson?

Gov. AMMONS. John R. Lawson, of the United Mine Workers.
Chairman WALSH. What position did he hold?

Gov. AMMONS. He was international member of the board. About the 1st of December-I don't recall the exact date-1912, I was told that very likely there would be a strike during my administration; that it might not come during that time.

Chairman WALSH. Did you get that information in some official way; did he call on you because you were governor elect, or was it just casually told you? GOV. AMMONS. No; he casually told me that. He said a strike would be called whenever they thought it was opportune, or something to that effect.

Chairman WALSH. Did you have any conversation with anyone else in regard to the coal situation between the time you had that conversation with Mr. Lawson and the time you became governor?

Gov. AMMONS. I do not recollect that I did-I know that I did, but I do not recall any specific facts. I will say that I tried to inquire into the situation after I had this conversation with him to see if anything could be done to prevent a strike.

Chairman WALSH. Was that prior to your entering the office of governor? Gov. AMMONS. Yes; I went into office the 14th of January.

Chairman WALSH. After you went into office, with whom did you have your first conversation with regard to the coal strike? When did you have your first official conference with any person with regard to coal troubles after going into office?

Gov. AMMONS. I think I should say this: In my inquiries I was told there were a good many complaints on the part of the miners about past conditions and that the laws were not sufficient; and that a law had been passed at the preceding session of the legislature which, for some reason, had been vetoed, attempting to cover this situation, and that others would be introduced into the nineteenththat was the present general assembly-to cover those matters. I tried to inquire into measures proposed and assist in whatever way I was able to during the session of the general assembly to secure the passage of a law regulating the operation of coal mines, hoping thereby to eliminate some of the matters about which there seemed to be complaint, or rather I should say disagreement.

Chairman WALSH. Do I understand that the legislature was in session at the time you took your office?

Gov. AMMONS. It was the 14th day of the session.

Chairman WALSH. Do you recall whether or not that legislation had been introduced at the time?

Gov. AMMONS. No; I don't know just when it was introduced. I know legislation was introduced, but I don't remember just when, nor do I recall the bills. There was one bill in particular that was considered throughout the session. Chairman WALSH. What was the general subject of that bill?

GOV. AMMONS. The operation of coal mines.

Chairman WALSH. What, in a general way, did it have to do with the matter? GOV. AMMONS. Covered the entire subject.

Chairman WALSH. The question of hours?

Gov. AMMONS. Well, I think the entire subject was covered, and I read the bill very carefully, but not recently. The bill is in the session laws, and you can get it there.

Chairman WALSH. NOW, was that bill passed in that legislature?

GOV. AMMONS. Yes. There was some disagreement between the houses. I think it passed-if I recollect right, it passed the house first and went to the senate; and in the senate it developed that there was a difference of sentiment, at least, between the houses, though not officially. That is, there was a difference of sentiment in the senate-some matters of disagreement up there-and this disagreement was finally adjusted by a conference between the operators, I will say, or the people representing them, and the miners, and an agreement was reached, both sides expressing themselves to me as being entirely satisfied with the measure and saying, as I recollect it, that it was the best law of the kind in the country.

Chairman WALSH. You took office, you say, on the 14th day of January? Gov. AMMONS. Yes, sir; that is my recollection.

Chairman WALSH. NOW, on what day was the strike called?

GOV. AMMONS. Twenty-third, I think, of the following September. Chairman WALSH. NOW, I wish, before you go ahead, Governor, that you give us what you might call the significant things that occurred, so far as you were concerned, prior to the calling of the strike-the general lines of any efforts that were made, in which you took part, to avert the strike, for instance. Gov. AMMONS. When this measure I refer to passed the legislature, it did not take effect until some months afterwards; I think about the 1st of October; I am not positive of that; about that time.

Chairman WALSH. Did you have any conferences with the leaders of the union before the strike was called?

GOV. AMMONS. Yes. Let me answer it in this way.

Chairman WALSH. Yes.

If I

GOV. AMMONS. I say I think this new law would take effect about October— along the 1st of October, possibly the 4th of October, if I recall aright. find that is incorrect, I want to correct it, because I am going by memoryChairman WALSH. Yes; I know it is difficult

Gov. AMMONS. After the adjournment of the legislature-during that time my time was occupied very fully and until the bill-30 days had expired for passing on bills that were passed by the legislature. I had hoped at that time that this new law covering the operations of mines would be put into effect, and that it would be the means of heading off any strike-that is, its operation. Sometime afterwards-I don't recall just when, but in the summer-Mr. Frank J. Hayes, representing the United Mine Workers of America came to Colorado. My recollection is that Mr. Lawson brought him up to the office and introduced him. He said he had come out to try and adjust some of the differences between the miners in the southern coal field and the operators.

Chairman WALSH. Was there any person else in the conference besides you and Mr. Hayes?

Gov. AMMONS. I do not recall, but it is possible there were two or three of the officers; I am not sure whether Mr. McLennan and Mr. Doyle were there at that time or not; but at most of the conferences there were generally three of them or all four. I do not recall. My recollection is this is the first time I had met Mr. Hayes.

Chairman WALSH. That was prior to the time, was it not, that a circular letter was sent to the coal operators by the miners?

GOV. AMMONS. Yes; this is when he first came out.

Chairman WALSH. When he first came out. Did you see him any more, have any other conferences with them at all, before this circular letter was sent to the coal operators?

Gov. AMMONS. I do not recall about that, but I had numerous conferences with them; I have forgotten exactly how many; but they wanted me to try and arrange conferences for them. But that I could not do.

Chairman WALSH. You did not?

GOV. AMMONS. I did not.

Chairman WALSH. You did not feel that you could undertake to do that? GOV. AMMONS. No.

Chairman WALSH. But you did not?

Gov. AMMONS. No. I wish you wouldn't ask me that question that way. Chairman WALSH. Did you or did you not seek to have a conference between

Gov. AMMONS. Yes; tried to get conferences.

Chairman WALSH. Sir?

Gov. AMMONS. Yes, sir; I tried to get conferences.
Chairman WALSH. Excuse me.

I thought you said you did not, and that is the reason I asked it that way. Was that effort made in writing or did you just call upon the operators to come to your office?

GOV. AMMONS. I had very little letter writing in the whole proposition, the whole matter, unless there was some special reason.

Chairman WALSH. What effort did you make, Governor, to have a conference?

GOV. AMMONS. I do not know how many; I made a great many. Chairman WALSH. Whom did you call upon on the side of the mine operators? Gov. AMMONS. I do not recall, but I think there were most of the-I had conferences on this matter-I think most of them were with Mr. Welborn, Mr. Osgood, and Mr. Brown, who from the beginning to the present time have rather represented the operators' side of the question as Mr. Lawson, Mr. McLennan, and Mr. Doyle have represented the other side.

Chairman WALSH. Was there any time during this effort

GOV. AMMONS. I will say I have talked to a great many other operators probably. At one time I think I met some thirty-odd of them in one conference over this matter. That was along, I think, after the strike was called, when there were so many of them together.

Chairman WALSH. Where was this conference held, Governor?

GOV. AMMONS. I think down at the Brown Hotel.

Chairman WALSH. And in that conference was this same committee included, do you recollect?

Gov. AMMONS. I think so. I think they were all there. I do not recall definitely.

Chairman WALSH. Did these efforts continue down to the time that the miners' convention met in Trinidad?

GOV. AMMONS. It continued long after that.

Chairman WALSH. And they continued up to that time, did they?