Commissioner WEINSTOCK. With 30 or 40 Chinese, and they all escaped, and nobody ever has done anything; and they have traveled over the State, no doubt, unmolested.

Mr. FONG. That is something very remarkable.
Commissioner WEINSTOCK. But that is a fact.

Mr. FONG. I can't say those things can't occur very often; it may be. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. They caught the captain of the ship, they caught the smuggler, the white man smuggler and the Chinese smuggler, but the passengers themselves escaped-about 30 or more of them.

Mr. FONG. I know, but in connection with this what you mention with the new bill, that doesn't prevent those people going and doing that; that doesn't prevent that.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. That is true. You are right. They could do that under the new bill just as they can do it under the old bill, with this difference: That those 30 or 40 Chinamen are likely to be held up any time and the certificate demanded.

Mr. FONG. They are likely now.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. No, they are not likely now; that is, the law provides for it now, but the machinery is not there, it is not enforced. It simply means the enforcement of the present law, that is all.

The inspection-the fact of this proposed law calling for an inspection is no different from what the law provides at this minute, only that this makes provision for its enforcement, and the present law is so construed that it is not enforced. Aside from the reregistration is the enforcement of the present law by inspection; that is all, with this difference, that under the present law if that inspection is enforced, you, and thousands of others like you entitled to be here, native citizens, if you happen to be away from home would be liable to annoyance and inconvenience and humiliation where under the new law it would be possible for you to protect yourself thoroughly.

Mr. FONG. Now, Col. Weinstock, I think if you were in my place, I don't know, but if you would happen to be a Chinese citizen and look at it from a Chinese view, my view-I wouldn't quote this as a view of Chinese at large, but my personal view is to let the Chinese know, the Government hear about it, anything to be remedied; let them remedy it through the diplomatic source rather than have a new law, law, law all the time. I am personally in this favor of the law all the time. If the law they have would be enforced, I think of they are enforcing the immigration law, they are enforcing it more worse than any other law they have in Congress now.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Let me ask you this: Do you believe existing laws ought to be enforced?

Mr. FONG. As far as smuggling is concerned I should say so.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. I would tell you what would happen if the existing law was enforced. There would be a great deal of injustice done, because if the crews, if the inspection crews were sent out to-day to check up they would find untold numbers of Chinaman legally entitled to be here, but utterly unable to prove their rights because, many of them, their papers were destroyed in the San Francisco fire. Under the law they would be deported. It is because of that possible injustice that might arise that this has been established, has been suggested, reregistration, so as to wipe off the slate and legalize every man that is here, right or wrong, making it impossible to deport a man legally entitled to be here, to cure that situation.

Mr. FONG. It would take a great deal to convince me, though. On the face of it it sounds good, but different when we try to study and analyze it, it doesn't-I rather see Congress enforce the law and do as much injustice they don't want it to do; I would prefer to have Chinese hear of it in that light, in that manner, rather than have another law. I am not in favor of new law. Every time when there is a new law passed it seems to give to the Bureau of Immigration that much more power-every single time it seems to put new blood into their veins all the time; always has been, and I think it always will be.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. That is all. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MISS NORAH K. BANKS.

Mr. BUSIEK. Please take the chair, Miss Banks.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Take the oath: Do you solemnly swear that the evidence that you will give in this matter before the commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss BANKS. I do.

Mr. BUSIEK. Please state your name, Miss Banks.

Miss BANKS. Norah K. Banks.

Mr. BUSIEK. I will ask you to speak out so that all these gentlemen can hear you.

Miss BANKS. Norah K. Banks.

Mr. BUSIEK. What is your position?

Miss BANKS. I am Miss Cameron's assistant in the Presbyterian Chinese Home in this city.

Mr. BUSIEK. And Miss Cameron is so sick that she can not come before this commission at this time?

Miss BANKS. She is.

Mr. BUSIEK. That is true. How long have you been Miss Cameron's assistant?

Miss BANKS. For two and a half years.

Mr. BUSIEK. And prior to that time you were where?

Miss BANKS. I have been working among the Chinese for over 20 years in Los Angeles and San Francisco.

Mr. BUSIEK. Miss Banks, to get right to the meat of the matter, some years ago an investigation was made into the Immigration Department here at San Francisco. At that time, as I have taken it up with you and with Miss Cameron, Miss Cameron gave some testimony to Mr. Edsell concerning conditions which she had discovered in the Immigration Bureau here; namely, that girls who were brought over here as prostitutes were brought over by the aid of certain interpreters and inspectors in the bureau, and Miss Cameron mentioned names, giving chief among those Dr. Gardner. And her testimony, which I asked you to verify with her, was to the effect that for a great many years she had thought that Dr. Gardner was a sincere and earnest Christian, but the persistent reports which she had heard had ultimately caused her to change her mind, and she knew of specific instances in which he had had a hand in importing Chinese slave girls. That is true, is it not?

Miss BANKS. It is.

Mr. BUSIEK. And do you know of any instance that has come to your observation since that time of Dr. Gardner's participation in such business?

Miss BANKS. Yes; I do; of one case in particular. There have been a number of girls in the home, rescued slave girls, who have stated at different times that they had heard it reported in Chinatown that Dr. Gardner was engaged in this business and did help to land slave girls, but this girl to her own knowledge knew that Dr. Gardner came one night to the house of her owner, or her owners-I think she was owned by a certain family, or more than one man, as they often are-and he told this man, she heard him tell him that a certain raid was to be made by immigration officers, on information that they had received, on a certain slave house. And Dr. Gardner gave this man the information in order that he might have the girls out of the way, and she was one of the girls that were to be removed from that house before the immigration officers got there. And she said that Dr. Gardner was in frequent communication with those men.

Mr. BUSIEK. Did you satisfy yourself as to the truth of this statement; did you believe it yourself?

Miss BANKS. I did; because she was-though she was a rescued slave girl, she was a very truthful girl, and she had no object whatever in telling us different. She did it voluntarily one night when we were speaking of the conditions of slave girls, and she said how she had to work, that if she hadn't been rescued she would have had to work that much longer in order to pay back the money which that cost her owners.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Did this girl speak English?

Miss BANKS. No.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Do you speak Chinese?

Miss BANKS. I understand a little, but Miss Wu was with me.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Did she act as interpreter?

Miss BANKS. Yes; but I could understand almost everything that she said. Mr. BUSIEK. Now, there are, then, three cases of which Miss Cameron and you have satisfied yourselves as to the truth of the matter. In addition to that, it is one of the most persistent and most common reports in Chinatown, is it not, that Dr. Gardner shares or extorts money from incoming Chinese and assists in landing prostitutes?

Miss BANKS. Yes; it is. It is commonly reported and believed. I have heard these reports myself of my own knowledge for nearly 20 years since I became interested in rescue work.

Commissioner GARRETSON. And they are seldom if ever combatted by the

natives?

Miss BANKS. Oh, no. It is the general belief, but nobody has the courage to testify to that.

Mr. BUSIEK. There are two or three other interpreters, are there not, who are involved in the same kind of charges?

Miss BANKS. Well, this girl mentioned another interpreter. She could not describe him as clearly as she did Dr. Gardner. She said that they called him Ah Joe, and we were not able definitely to place him. She said that he was an American and that he spoke Chinese very well. He was one of those at that time in the service; a white man who spoke Chinese. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. How old was this girl?

Miss BANKS. She was about 23.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. She was used for immoral purposes?

Miss BANKS. She had been kept; yes; by this family, and she said that her master and her master's relatives were friends of Dr. Gardner's. She was

rescued by Miss Cameron.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. I don't quite understand.

servant in the family?

Miss BANKS. No; she was a prostitute.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Used for immoral purposes?

Miss BANKS. Yes; owned by this family.

She was a domestic

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. And lived right in with the family?

Miss BANKS. No; she was kept in one of these houses; but she was in this man's store or house at the time, I understood, that she heard the conversation between Dr. Gardner and these men.

Mr. BUSIEK. Now, Chin Jack, one of the interpreters, and Ed Park are also supposed to be doing that same kind of work, are they not?

Miss BANKS. I had never heard anything about Chin Jack. knowledge. But we feared that Mr. Park was.

I have no

Mr. BUSIEK. Now, Dr. Gardner was a member of the church and took active part in the work which you are now performing for many years, did he not? Miss BANKS. For a great many years, and Miss Cameron at that time trusted him implicitly; would as soon have thought, I think, of doubting herself as she did him, and he professed a great interest in the home and appeared to give a great deal of help to it at that time.

Mr. BUSIEK. And how was his connection severed with that congregation or with that work?

Miss BANKS. I am not acquainted with those facts. I don't know.

Mr. BUSIEK. You are not?

Miss BANKS. No.

Mr. BUSIEK. I believe that is all, unless the commission has something. Commissioner GARRETSON. Anything further, Mr. Weinstock?

Mr. BUSIEK. Oh, yes; I want to ask you this one question: In the written examination taken by Miss Cameron, in which Miss Cameron gave her statement to Mr. Edsell, she said that she could furnish him with the names of two men who would testify to actual transactions with Dr. Gardner, men whom she said had the courage to come forward. And I asked you to take that matter up with Miss Cameron and ask her whether or not Mr. Edsell ever required of her that she furnish the names of those men or asked for her assistance in procuring statements from them.

Miss BANKS. She could not remember, Mr. Busiek, whether she ever did give the names or not. She didn't think that she had given the names, but she did give him the names of two notorious Chinese men who were importers of slave girls that she knew were connected with Dr. Gardner a long time. Mr. BUSIEK. Those were Woo Wai

Miss BANKS. And Yee Mee.

Mr. BUSIEK. I believe that is all.
Commissioner GARRETSON. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MR. LEE SONG.

Mr. BUSIEK. Mr. Fong, will you please take the oath as interpreter, first? Mr. FONG. Yes.

Commissioner GARRETSON. I will swear the witness first. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you will give before this commission-one moment; I will swear you first [addressing the interpreter]: Does he understand the oath?

Mr. FONG. He understands the oath. I can repeat it in Chinese. Commissioner GARRETSON. That is the reason I was going to swear you first, so you can repeat it to him. I will swear you as interpreter first. Mr. FONG. Yes.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Do you solemnly swear that you will truthfully interpret in every particular as between the commission and the witness in this matter now before the commission?

Mr. FONG. Yes.

Commissioner GARRETSON (addressing the witness). Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you will give in this matter now before the commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? The WITNESS. Yes.

Mr. BUSIEK. Have the witness take the chair. Now, Mr. Fong, caution the witness to answer nothing but the question that is put to him and answer it directly.

Mr. BUSIEK. What is your name?

Mr. LEE. Lee Song.

Mr. BUSIEK. Where do you live?

Mr. LEE. In this city.

Mr. BUSIEK. What is your business?

Mr. LEE. In the firm of Wint Ti Lung, general merchandise-merchants.
Mr. BUSIEK. Do you know Dr. Gardner?

Mr. LEE. I know him.

Mr. BUSIEK. Did you ever see any transaction between Dr. Gardner and any other Chinese person, which would lead you to form a conclusion as to Dr. Gardner's honesty?

Mr. LEE. I have.

Mr. BUSIEK. Where was that and when?

Mr. LEE. In the year of the earthquake-that was 1906-I saw Dr. Gardner have some relations with Fong Hing, in Oakland.

Mr. BUSIEK. What was Fong Hing's business?

Mr. LEE. Fong Hing's business prior to the earthquake was in the cigar business, but after the fire he attended to these immigration cases or looked after the immigration cases.

Mr. BUSIEK. And ask him whether or not Fong Hing accumulated a great deal of money?

Mr. LEE. It was known that he had a lot of money when he went to China. Mr. BUSIEK. Ask him whether or not Fong Hing did not have the reputation as being a smuggler and importer of Chinese prostitutes and was not in fact known as such among the Chinese?

Mr. LEE. He is known to me, and in general that he looked after all cases, all immigration cases, whether women or men or anyone else.

Mr. BUSIEK. Whom did he look after them for?

Mr. LEE. Any particular person; any person that happened to come and call on him to transact the business, or say look after my immigration case, he does it for him.

Mr. BUSIEK. He don't work, or he didn't work, with any particular lawyer at all?

Mr. LEE. He had no one attorney in particular, simply worked with one attorney one day and another attorney another day who have as their business general immigration practice.

Mr. BUSIEK. Was Fong Hing a highly educated Chinese, and could he talk English fluently?

Mr. LEE. He is an educated fellow and speaks English very fluently.
Mr. BUSIEK. What was this transaction you saw take place?

One

Mr. LEE. This incident was in an evening about 8 o'clock-over 8 o'clock. night on Webster Street, between Fourth and Fifth, he saw Mr. Fong Hing, and he says, "It is a warm night, simply I am waiting for a person.' He, Lee,

38819-S. Doc. 415, 64-1-vol 7———22

stepped aside and walked along and saw Gardner come along and saw Fong Hing hand the money over to Dr. Gardner.

Mr. BUSIEK. How much money did he have?

Mr. LEE. I know they have a lot of money, because he held the money in his hand while he was waiting for this party.

Mr. BUSIEK. What kind of money was it?

Mr. LEE. It was in gold.

Mr. BUSIEK. Did Fong Hing give any explanation of what this money was or why he gave Dr. Gardner this money?

Mr. LEE. Yes, sir; he says, "I am regularly in touch with Dr. Gardner, and of course I handle cases, and if a case wasn't any good, why for that sum, $200 or $250, he can generally straighten it out for me." That was Fong Hing told me after I asked him whether he have any relation with Dr. Gardner.

Mr. BUSIEK. Was any proposition ever made to you that Gardner would take cases for you?

Mr. LEE. Well, he said just prior to his departure for China, he says. "I am sorry my time is somewhat limited; I would like very much to make you acquainted with Dr. Gardner and put you there as my personal friend and confidential friend; it would enable you to carry on my job or my business the same that I have been doing."

Mr. BUSIEK. Ask him what Gardner's general reputation is.

Mr. LEE. It has been a general rumor that I know of that Dr. Gardner generally looked after these cases that wouldn't pass otherwise, but Dr. Gardner wouldn't accept generally except through a few hands.

Mr. BUSIEK. What was that answer? He wouldn't take the money?

Mr. LEE. He wouldn't take the deal except through particular hands.
Mr. BUSIEK. He had to have some go-between?

Mr. LEE. Some go-between; a particular person he can trust or confide in.
Mr. BUSIEK. Who were these persons?

Mr. LEE. I know definitely Fong Hing was one of them; but as to the others, of course, I have heard Dr. Gardner was very careful, only a few persons. I heard this, but I don't know who the other party was, outside of Fong Hing. I know Fong Hing was one of them.

Mr. BUSIEK. Didn't the transaction take place near Woo Wai's house over in Oakland?

Mr. LEE. I do not know. I only know that-I know now Woo Wai lives in Oakland, but not after the fire, because I went to San Jose and happened to come up to collect some insurance and went over to Oakland and happened to be walking down Webster Street and met Fong Hing.

Commissioner GARRETSON. You have established the residence as being there, from other sources?

Mr. BUSIEK. It is established in the record.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Is that all?

Mr. BUSIEK. That is all.

TESTIMONY OF MR. WONG TONG.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you will give in this matter now before the commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUSIEK. Mr. Wong, we are going to conduct this through Mr. Fong, so that we can get along faster, that is all.

Mr. WONG. Yes, sir.

(The examination of the witness Wong Tong was from this point conducted through Interpreter Fong, and the answers recited by him.)

Mr. BUSIEK. Your full name?

Mr. WONG. Wong Tong.

Mr. BUSIEK. What is your business?

Mr. WONG. General merchandise.

Mr. BUSIEK. How long have you been in San Francisco?

Mr. WONG. I was born in San Francisco.

Mr. BUSIEK. What connection have you with the Chinese Presbyterian Church?

Mr. WONG. I am a member and baptized in the Presbyterian Church over 25 year ago.

Mr. BUSIEK. How long have you known Dr. Gardner?