kind of help me out." And I didn't answer him, because I got mad on him on that matter.

Chairman WALSH. Did you get his place of business, where his place of business is?

Mr. BUSIEK. 719 King Street is your address?

Mr. Woo GEN. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH, And he is a merchant, is he?

Mr. BUSIEK. Yes.

Commissioner LENNON. Have the Chinese any societies in this city?

Mr. Woo GEN. Yes; we have.

Commissioner LENNON. Does Tape belong to any of those societies, so far as you know?

Mr. Woo GEN. No, sir.

Commissioner LENNON. You don't think he does?

Mr. Woo GEN. I don't believe he belongs to either one. He don't recognize himself as a Chinaman.

Chairman WALSH, Pretends to be an American?

Mr. Woo GEN. Yes, sir.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. You think Mr. Tape is pretty well off financially? Mr. Woo GEN. Well, I heard about his father is pretty well off.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Well, about himself.

Mr. Woo GEN. About himself I don't know about his finances.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do you know of any other Chinamen that said they gave him money?

Mr. Woo GEN. Well, I don't know; that is the only thing.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. That is the only thing you know of?

Mr. Woo GEN. That I know of.

Chairman WALSH. That is all; thank you, Mr. Woo Gen.

Mr. BUSIEK. Thank you.

Chairman WALSH. The commission will now stand adjourned until 2 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 12.35 o'clock p. m. on this Tuesday, August 18, 1914, an adjournment was taken until 2 o'clock p. m.)

AFTER RECESS-2 P. M.

The commission met pursuant to adjournment. Present as before.
Thereupon the following proceedings were had:

Mr. BUSIEK. Just resume the stand, Mr. Lysons.

TESTIMONY OF MR. FRED LYSONS-Recalled.

Mr. LYSONS. There are some conditions which I found in China which have a very material bearing on our treatment of the subject of Chinese immigration and exclusion that I think every department of our Government should know about. Now, we have always heard of China as a country of the most congested areal conditions, that there is not land enough for the people to squat down upon. I found over there acres, acres and miles of fertile, uncultivated land given over to graves of deceased ancestors. Ancestor worship is a great institution in China, and to the extent to which they carry it, in my judgment, it is the curse of China. I was taken on an ancestor worship pilgrimage by an old Seattle client, a friend of mine, and permitted to photograph their ceremony. [Witness hands photographs to Chairman Walsh.] I would like to introduce these pictures in the record, if you care for them. Chairman WALSH. All right, Mr. Lysons.

Mr. LYSONS. Those pictures are interesting in an inquiry of this sort probably, as showing the extent of that land that is given over for that purpose. Chairman WALSH. What is this place they seem to be worshipping in? Mr. LYSONS. That is a grave.

Chairman WALSH. Just one grave?

Mr. LYSONS. That old gentleman's grandfather. That grave is constructed of cement at a great expense. Some distance over you will see-maybe 50 yards, you will see another grave. Now, there is all that space taken up for single graves.

(The photographs referred to were submitted, but are not printed.)

The only way that China will get away from that is through the introduction of western education and civilization. As an accompaniment of that ancestry worship proposition, of course, is the necessity for descendants to worship those

38819-S. Doc. 415, 64-1-vol 7-14

graves, and that accounts for the overpopulation of the country. The introduction of western education and western civilization, in my judgment, will overcome that evil to a great extent; at least will reclaim practically all of that land that is now given over for that purpose, and there will be, for generations to come, plenty of room in China for all of their inhabitants, speaking still, of course, of southern China, the part that concerns us.

The advance of progress in China in recent years has been very great, particularly in the matter of wages. That is another matter that should be taken into consideration in our policy with regard to Chinese immigration.

It has not been many years since wages in China averaged probably 3 to 5 cents a day. This old man shown in those pictures is a man who has built a railroad over there; Chin Gee Hee, from Seattle. He went over there and built a railroad in his own old home district. He told me that the commonest sort of labor on his railroad gets 30 cents a day, and the ordinary railroad work averages probably upward of 50 cents a day.

Yee Gee, a former resident of this city, who was some years ago interpreter in our Government customhouse and who has gone over there and has now become a leading building contractor at Hongkong, he built the post office there, the Government post office, and the municipal waterworks, and other public improvements. He told me he pays his laborers upward of 50 cents a day, and that is for unskilled laborers. His skilled laborers get from $1 to $2 a day. Chinese of foreign education, who can talk English or other foreign languageEnglish chiefly in the concerns in Hongkong, get from $300 to $400 a month. It has been simply astonishing the advancement in industrial conditions in China in the last few years. A number of Chinese acquaintances of mine corroborate those statements.

So that there is not the demand now, it is not the desire among the Chinese to come to the United States or go to other foreign countries that there was before these improved labor and industrial conditions over there, and the desire to go abroad now is actuated chiefly by the fact that the work over there is menial and degrading. They would not have to work so hard here. That is the matter that is concerning them now.

One day I dropped into a manufacturing place where they were sawing up jade stones, taking an old-fashioned bamboo saw, a saw with a bamboo frame, and working very hard at it, and one of them asked the interpreter with me if I was an American, and he said yes. He then wanted him to ask me if the Americans could not get up some sort of improved saw for that sort of work. Everywhere I saw the cry for improved conditions in labor and industry and methods and machines.

By the way, I have recalled to mind an instance of alleged graft in this office, but whether it was graft or not, it will have a bearing on the general subject of the administration of our laws. A couple of years or so ago a young man of this city, a young Chinese named Chin Sue Yen, about 30 years of age, went to China to get married. He came back a couple of years ago with his young wife. At the immigration station here he was admitted as a native born, as he had been a number of times before. His wife was rejected. He told me that Interpreter Tape had demanded graft of $100 as a condition of so interpreting the case that his wife would be admitted. He refused to pay and his wife was rejected. This young man when he went over there, he was a very bright young business fellow, and he had connected himself with a concern that was putting in or getting ready to put in a motor-bus line on a military road leading out of Canton. He had come here as a representative of that concern with funds to purchase the equipment. On his wife's rejection he was obliged, of course, to accompany her back to China. Which reminds me of another regulation they have here.

They have a regulation here, by the way, denying the Chinese of the right to remarry on our shores. A Chinaman will bring his wife here, and if the marriage is doubtful for any reason, he is not permitted to have another ceremony here. An immigrant of any other nation is. Every week there are upon the arrival of any oriental steamer numerous Japanese marriages performed here. This right is denied the Chinese. This young man was obliged to accompany his wife back to China and have the ceremony performed there. As a result of the treatment and rejection of his wife he has not returned to this country. As a further result, this equipment he intended to purchase here has been purchased abroad, in Germany, I believe.

Whether this result of rejection was the result of graft or honest administration of our law, it is one instance, and typical of a number of instances

upon which I formed my judgment and gives me my opinion that that exclusion law should be more liberally interpreted as to the privileged classes.

With the fact that there are only about, not to exceed, 2,000 new Chinese admitted to this country annually, I can not see what harm would come from admitting the wives of those who are lawfully here. I think, in fact, that should be the policy of this country. I think the admission of wives am children should be extended to the laboring classes. Now, I am speaking in the interest of this country and the commerce of this country, not in the interest of the Chinese. For, as I said, they don't care, they are indifferent to what this country does. But speaking now exclusively in our interests, extending our commercial interests, I believe that our present law should be more liberally construed.

Chinese who have been here and absorbed our civilization are friendly disposed toward this country. That man Chin Gee Hee, who is the head of that railroad, buys all of the equipment in this country that he possibly can. I found on that railroad some German locomotives. I learned that at the time he had to buy those locomotives in 1904 or 1905, was the time the Chinese were boycotting this country, and his directors would not permit him then to buy in this country. He was obliged at that time to buy those few locomotives in either Germany or Glasgow. But with the exception of that he gives preference, as do all the Chinese who have been here, to this country.

I found in Canton a Chinese tailor, Yee Gee-no; Gee Hee. He still maintains a place of business in Seattle. He went on a visit to China about three years ago, and he observed the demand there for the American style of clothing. He opened a tailoring establishment in Canton, and when I saw him there a year later he had more than 40 workmen employed making American style clothing.

Chairman WALSH. For native Chinamen?

Mr. LYSONS. For native Chinese; yes; right in the heart of that Chinese city of Canton. I found department stores there in Canton managed by Americanized Chinese. They get their stock cheaper in other countries than the United States because they haven't the opportunity to buy here that they have in other places. I found that they were stocked largely on goods from Japan, Germany, and England. And it does seem to me, gentlemen, particularly under the present condition where all the foreign countries are engrossed with their own troubles, that with the degree of statesmanship which we all believe our Americans are capable, that the United States now, by the proper treatment of China and her subjects could build up a commerce with China that would be simply astounding in its proportions. Chairman WALSH. Much obliged, Mr. Lysons.

Call your next witness.

Mr. BUSIEK. Mrs. Hing.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. SARAH E. HING.

Chairman WALSH. Be sworn, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give in the hearing now before this commission, being an investigation into the alleged smuggling of Chinese into the United States, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. HING. I do.

Mr. BUSIEK. Please give your name in full,

Mrs. HING. Sarah Elizabeth Hing.

Mr. BUSIEK. Where do you live, Mrs. Hing.

Mrs. HING. I live at 410 North Pine Street, Ellensburg, Wash.

Mr. BUSIER. Your husand is Moy E. Hing?

Mrs. HING. Moy J. Hing.

Mr. BUSIEK. Moy J. Hing?

Mrs. HING. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUSIEK. And he is a Chinese?

Mrs. HING. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUSIEK. How long have you been married, Mrs. Hing?
Mrs. HING. I was married nine years ago.

Mr. BUSIEK. Where?

Mrs. HING. New York City.

Mr. BUSIEK. To Mr. Hing?

Mr. BUSIEK. Is he of pure Chinese descent?

Mrs. HING. His parents are; yes.

Mr. BUSIEK. What business was Mr. Hing in when you married him?
Mrs. HING. In the restaurant business.

Mr. BUSIEK. In New York?

Mrs. HING. In Detroit, Mich.

Mr. BUSIEK. In Detroit, Mich.?

Mrs. HING. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUSIEK. And when did you then go to China?

Mrs. HING. I went to China in 1908, I think it was-yes, 1908, in November. Mr. BUSIEK. On what mission?

Mrs. HING. I went to China as a missionary.

Mr. BUSIEK. Sent out by whom?

Mrs. HING. We went independently.

Mr. BUSIEK. You went independently?

Mrs. HING. I am from the Baptist Church, but the board does not pay Chinese to do missionary work in China.

Chairman WALSH. A little louder, please.

Mrs. HING. The board does not pay missionaries, not for Chinese missionaries; that is, the Chinese themselves, they don't pay the Chinese for doing mission work in China.

Mr. BUSIEK. Were you sent out with credentials from the Baptist Mission Board?

Mrs. HING. No; they knew I was going. Dr. A. C. Ward, of the Temple Baptist Church

Mr. BUSIEK. Dr. who?

Mrs. HING. A. C. Ward.

Mr. BUSIEK. From Atlanta, Ga.?

Mrs. HING. I lectured with him all around America at that time.

Chairman WALSH. You lectured with him?

Mrs. HING. Yes.

Mr. BUSIEK. On what subject?

Mrs. HING. On the China subject, during the Boxer war.

Mr. BUSIEK. Had you been in China before?

Mrs. HING. I had been in China before.

Mr. BUSIEK. Under the auspices of whom?

Mrs. HING. Of the First Baptist Church of Augusta, Ga. This is my second marriage.

Mr. BUSIEK. I see. And what was your name then?

Mrs. HING. My name then was Lee. I married a Lee, and went to China. He had a wife there, and, of course, I had the marriage annulled, and came back to America.

Mr. BUSIEK. You went by the name of Sarah Elizabeth Lee?

Mrs. HING. Lee; yes, sir.

Mr. BUSIEK. And did you have credentials from the board at that time? Mrs. HING. At that time the board sent me from the Baptist Church; yes, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. In what year was that?

Mrs. HING. That was in 1889, 1887 or 1889, I think something along in between those two years.

Mr. BUSIEK. When you went there in 1908, then, you say you went independently?

Mrs. HING. Yes.

Mr. BUSIEK. You were not connected with any

Mrs. HING. No, sir.

Mr. BUSIEK. Missionary board?

Mrs. HING. No, sir. I was not.

Mr. BUSIEK. Who paid your expenses in China?

Mrs. HING, I paid it myself. I taught school to support myself while I was there.

Chairman WALSH. What did you teach?

Mrs. HING. I taught English. I had a private school of my own and went out teaching. We teach by the hour from the different schools. But I taught in private families, mostly, and had my own school.

Mr. BUSIEK. That was in what city?

Mrs. HING. I had a school in Hongkong, and afterwards in Canton.

Mr. BUSIEK. Do you speak Chinese?

Mrs. HING. Pretty good.

Mr. BUSIEK. What gave you the idea of bringing students to the United States?

Mrs. HING. That was merely for a favor at that one time, is the only one time I have ever even insinuated such a thing to anybody that I wanted to bring any Chinese here at all. At that time they asked me as a favor, some of the boys, they had got up a club together and wanted to come to school, and I was coming back to America to see my mother, she is old and has nobody to support her, look after her, and I came back to see her, and they asked me if I would just merely come with them and see that they got through. I did it as a favor.

Mr. BUSIEK. I should have asked you; where were you educated, Mrs. Hing? Mrs. HING. Well, in Peoria, Ill.

Mr. BUSIEK. And did you have an education which fitted you for teaching? Mrs. HING. Well, teaching Chinese; yes. I can teach in the lower grades. Of course, I have educated myself mostly since I became a woman. I never

graduated from any school.

Mr. BUSIEK. Not from ward school?

Mrs. HING. From the common schools, yes, but not from the high schools. I went to the summer school in Peoria, Ill.

Mr. BUSICK. Not from ward school?

Mrs. HING. Why, through a-I read in a magazine of Mr. Cowell, and I thought I knew him, and asked him if he would take these students, and he said he would. They asked me to find a school for them, and I took them there. They paid me for taking them, but I told the inspectors when I came over that I would give up all responsibility of them after I had landed them in America. I didn't intend at all to take them. I didn't even want to, but they asked me a favor and I could not do anything else but grant it for them.

Chairman WALSH. Who paid you, you say, for taking care of them? Mrs. HING. Nobody paid me. They gave me the money to pay for their schooling for three months, I believe it was, each student at Cushing Academy. And I thought that I knew Mr. Cowell, and I was trying to do him a favor, you understand, by putting them in that school. And I thought it was a better place for them to be educated at than a whole lot of other schools, because there were more foreigners there than they have at any other college here in America. And after I left, Mr. Monroe can tell you I came back to America apurpose afterwards to try to get those boys back in that school again, and I did all in my power to get them back.

Mr. BUSIEK. Did you ever write Principal Cowell that you were connected with the W. C. T. U. of China?

Mrs. HING. I was organizing the W. C. T. U. in China at that time; yes, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. Did you have any correspondence with the national officers of that organization in America?

Mrs. HING. No. In Shanghai.

Mr. BUSIEK. Were you also organizing—or with whom did you correspond in Shanghai?

Mrs. HING. Now, I can't tell you that. I have the letter at home. A lady,

she is.

Mr. BUSICK. Will you furnish the commission with a copy of that letter?
Mrs. HING. Yes. I will look it up.
Mr. BUSIEK. All the correspondence.

Y. W. C. A. in China?

Were you also connected with the

Mrs. HING. No; I will tell you how it is. In China, in the interior, they don't allow you to open churches there. You know what I mean. In some

of the villages they are against it, and I opened schools and Y. M. C. A.'s called it that merely, to get to open churches, religious work there through the interior. And that is the only way we could do it by you known, calling it a Y. M. C. A. or W. C. T. U. But they told me, now I have my Christian Endeavor badges, and things that I can use. I didn't have it at that time. Mr. BUSIEK. Did you have any correspondence with the central officers of the Y. W. C. A. in China?

Mrs. HING. No, no; I will tell you what I had. At the Y. M. C. A..-we belong to that, my husband and I do, and we pay so much a year. But they