Mr. LYSONS. The conditions you enumerate may be true to some extent, but the Chinese here, I believe, take-and certainly those who are of my acquaintance take a broader view of the subject than the individual rights of the comparatively few Chinese who are here. Such a law. may protect some Chinese who are here lawfully, but with difficulty in establishing that lawful right. Certainly it seems to me it would protect the Chinese who are here unlawfully. But the advantage that it would be to the few individual Chinese who are here would be no comparison to the resulting ill effects it would have on the trade and commerce of this country with China by reason of making the Chinese-individualizing the Chinese nation in regard to our treatment of them and making marked men of the Chinese as distinguished from the immigrants from any other country.

Mr. BUSIEK. Then, the only objection that the Chinese have to this proposed bill is that it provides a different manner of treatment for them than is provided for any other class of people in this country, so that there is just an added regulation to those that already exist?

Mr. LYSONS. Well, that would overshadow other objections that they have to it, anyway.

Mr. BUSIEK. What other objections have they, Mr. Lyons?

Chairman WALSH. I think Mr. Lysons has stated the broad general objections to it.

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir; I undertook to.

Chairman WALSH. That it would be a violation of true statesmanship to do it on account of the general proposition involved in dealing with China commercially and otherwise?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Those are the large things?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. And individually, it is explained by the application of the registration to the local Chinese, it would go back and exert its influence in their own country and exert its influence here. Is that about the general idea? Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir; that is about it.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. On the other hand, what effect would it have on the large number of Chinese who are in this country illegally, and who are being chased from pillar to post, if those men were given cards showing that their residence in the United States was official and that they had a right to be here?

Mr. LYONS. Of course, as to those Chinese it would make them immune from trouble. I am of the opinion that the Chinese whom that would benefit and who need it, are comparatively few.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Have you any general idea or estimate as to what Chinamen there are in this country illegally?

Mr. LYSONS. It would be hard for me to estimate that. Any statement I would make would be only an estimate.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. LYSONS. I believe that 10 per cent of the Chinese of the total Chinese population of this country would cover the Chinese who are here unlawfully. Commissioner O'CONNELL. You say you think the population of the Chinese in the United States is decreasing?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir; I do.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. What is your estimate of the number of Chinese in the United States?

Mr. LYSONS. The only basis

Commissioner O'CONNELL. First, how many Chinese do you believe there are in the State of Washington, coming nearer home?

Mr. LYSONS. The only considerable number of Chinese in any one community is here in Seattle, and the total Chinese population of this city, I believe, does not exceed 1,000.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Would that be doubled in the State?
Mr. LYSONS. Beg pardon?

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Would that be doubled in the State?

Mr. LYSONS. I believe that would be a full estimate of the number in the State, double that. I would state from my knowledge of the conditions here and in Portland and throughout the Northwest my only-my basis, of course, for estimating the Chinese population is the United States census figures. That shows, as I recollect it, that in the last 20 years the Chinese population has decreased about 30 per cent. I know that within that time the population

here in this city and in Portland, Oreg., has decreased fully that much; and in these communities in the Northwest with which I am familiar the decrease has been fully that great.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Now, in your criticism on the tentative idea we have on this matter, on which you have offered criticism, have you anything in a constructive way to offer this commission?

Chairman WALSH. Any change in the law, any recommendation you think should be made?

Mr. LYSONS. I don't believe, gentlemen, that I would recommend any change in the law. I believe that the exclusion law as to Chinese laborers under present conditions, anyway is a wholesome law. I believe the time is coming when this country will realize that the Chinese will be entitled to the same treatment and equal privilege of admission here as other foreigners, certainly as other orientals. The Chinese as a people and as a country are advancing and progressing quite rapidly. When I speak of China, by the way, and the relations between China and this country, I refer to southern China.

Now, we have never had in the past and haven't now any extensive immigration or commercial relations with northern China. Of all the Chinese who have come here a very few thousand would cover those who have come from as far north even as Shanghai. Practically the whole Chinese population of this country has come from the southern Provinces, Qwong Tong Province chiefly, of which Canton is the capital city. That is the section of China which is advancing and progressing so rapidly, and so much more rapidly than other sections of China. That advancement and progress in my opinion being chiefly due to the influence of Chinese who have been educated and modernized in the United States, Australia, Canada, and other foreign countries, and have returned to China carrying western civilization back with them.

Commissioner LENNON. Do you believe the present law is reasonably effective in preventing smuggling?

Mr. LYSONS. I believe it is as effective as any law can be, and in comparison with prohibitive laws in other directions is entirely effective.

Commissioner O'CONNELL, Well, you understand this situation that has arisen ` out of bringing students here in the last few years?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes; I understood something of it.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Where more than 100 were brought in and in a few weeks they were gone, and no record of them at all--left the college?

Mr. LYSONS. I heard of the occurrence—just one important occurrence of that kind.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. There seems to be a lack of efficiency in carrying out that portion of the law.

Mr. LYSONS. You must remember that that was probably the first instance, and I believe the last and only instance of that kind, certainly the only instance of such magnitude.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. We have three or four instances before us.

Mr. LYSONS. I didn't know of any instance of anything like that magnitude. That student question is, of course, quite an important question in the administration of the Chinese exclusion law. I know something about it because I took an interest in a project of that sort on behalf of the Chinese merchants of this city and some merchants of Portland, Oreg. For some years there has been, oh, an insatiable desire among the Chinese to educate their children and relatives abroad especially in the United States. That desire became widespread and well known, and I believe that the public and foreign knowledge of that desire was the principal thing that resulted two or three or four years ago, whenever it was, in some people connected with the Adelphia College of this city sending to China, or going to China, and bringing in a crowd of Chinese ostensibly as students. I don't know enough about that project to characterize it, but I think likely an advantage was taken of that situation and the desire of the Chinese to send their younger children here for educational purposes. At any rate I have understood--it is largely hearsay with me I have understood a crowd of about 100 was brought over here, consisting to a large extent of horny fisted laborers, who entered school-entered this school-and in the course of a few months none of them were to be found here. As a result of the agitation that that incident stirred up the Government-the Chinese Government of the Province of Qwong Tong-has joined with the American officials over there in safeguarding the admission of Chinese to this country as students. The experience of the Chinese mer

chants of this city, with which I had personal knowledge by reason of my connection with their project to bring some students over here, I think is typical and will illustrate to this commission the means that are being taken and the safeguards that are being thrown around the admission of Chinese to this country as students.

I made a trip to China last year for these Chinese merchant clients of ours, primarily for the purpose of investigating the general relations, commercial and immigrant, between this country and China, and with the view also of assisting in carrying out their desire to bring to this country some of their relatives, young boys whom they desired to educate here. I found that, whether as a result of this Adelphia College incident or not, that at any rate since that time a Chinese applicant for a certificate which would enable him to go out of that country and be admitted to this country as a student, has to submit to an examination by the Chinese officials. That exmination is under the charge of the Chinese commissioner of education, and the Chinese commissioner of foreign affairs. Those two officials whom I met over there, Chung Wing Quong, being commissioner of education for Qwong Tong Province, and Pan H. Loo, being commissioner of foreign affairs, I found to be according to my estimate of them, very high-class men.

Pan H. Loo, being a graduate of Harvard University, and Chung Wing Quong being a graduate of some foreign school, I have forgotten now which

one.

Chairman WALSH. European?

Mr. LYSONS. I believe so. He was connected, by the way, with the college in Canton, the Canton Christian College, a nondenominational institution, which I think is doing quite a good work there.

These applicants must pass the examination of this educational commissioner and the commissioner of foreign affairs. This commissioner of foreign affair exacts a bond from the parents or relatives or other sponsor of these applicants for these students' certificates, guaranteeing to the Chinese Government the good faith of their application. Such of these applicants as are passed by these two Chinese bureaus then are required to pass the muster of the vice consul, the American vice consul at Canton, an official who I understand has been put there comparatively recently for the purpose of passing on immigrants' applications.

Accompanying me on this trip was one of the Chinese merchants of this city. He undertook among his relatives and friends there who desired to send their boys here for educational purposes, to secure their admission here as students. I was in China two months or more, and while I gave no attention to the details of arranging for the admission of these students while I was there, this Chinese representative of these merchants had not succeeded in getting a single applicant past those three examining officials. It is my opinion from my experience and personal knowledge of the situation and from what I have learned and heard from other sources of information, that the present law and regulations give an entirely effective method of preventing abuse of student privilege under the exclusion law.

Chairman WALSH. Mr. Lysons, have you any knowledge directly or through any source that you think is reasonably authentic to the effect that there is smuggling of Chinese in this district?

Mr. LYSONS. I have no knowledge even through hearsay of anything approaching an organized smuggling of Chinese. Occasionally I hear of the arrest of some Chinese who has been smuggled in. There is occasionally the arrest of some one, Chinese or American, charged with smuggling in Chinese, but it is my opinion that those are simply individual instances.

Chairman WALSH. Have you any knowledge, either direct or hearsay, of any improper practice on the part of any official of the Government or anyone connected with the Immigration Department with reference to this subject of the smuggling in of Chinese?

Mr. LYSONS. I don't know as I understand exactly what you are getting at in your question.

Chairman WALSH. Do you know of any employee of the Government here who has accepted money for the purpose of allowing Chinese to come in, or close their eyes on violations of the law with reference to that subject, or anything of that sort; that is what I mean.

Mr. LYSONS. Well, for a long time past I have had reports brought to me of the acceptance of money and grafting by the interpreter here at the local

station, Frank Tape. I don't think I have heard reports of grafting except through that source.

Chairman WALSH. Do you know of any person connected with the Government, who has to do with the exclusion law, whose reputation, general reputation for honesty is bad-general reputation in the community; that is, among your Chinese clients and the community generally, outside of this one individual, I take it, that you have heard that his reputation is bad?

Mr. LYSONS. No, sir; outside of this one individual I don't believe there is. Chairman WALSH. Do you know of any person in the Government service, any official, which has to do with the exclusion act, whose general reputation in the community for morality is bad? *

Mr. LYSONS. Aside from this man I have mentioned I do not; no, sir. Chairman WALSH. Is there any suggestion you desire to volunteer to the commission, Mr. Lysons, with reference to this subject, of any sort?

Mr. LYSONS. I might say this, that while it is hearsay and has come to me from clients, through the relation of attorney and client, the connection of Tape with the service as interpreter has been a matter of criticism among the Chinese here for some time past.

Chairman WALSH. That is all.

Mr. LYSONS. Another source of graft of which my clients complain, and of which there is a general knowledge, I think, in the immigration service here, which likewise exists, of which I know only through hearsay, that is the medical examination service at Hongkong.

Chairman WALSH. Now, that wouldn't touch the matter of smuggling Chinese, would it-or would it? If it does not, of course, we don't care to hear it. Mr. LYSONS. I don't know that it would.

Chairman WALSH. You have read our law and we are limited to this one subject.

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. You don't think that would affect the smuggling of Chi

nese?

Mr. LYSONS. No, sir; it is briefly this: These Chinese applicants for admission, whether applications for admission in the first instance or returning domicile Chinese, complain that they are grafted there by those medical examiners, required to take treatment, and I believe it is true and this may affect the immigration matter here within the scope of this law-I believe it is true that applicants for admission or readmission are frequently passed by this examining board over at Hongkong by these examining physicians as being free from disease-passed after treatment by these physicians for which they receive a consideration when in fact they are not cured.

Commissioner LENNON. Are these diseases venereal diseases or general? Mr. LYSONS. No, sir; the only diseases, I think, that give any trouble or that they pay particular attention to are trachoma and hookworm, the ill effects of those, in my opinion, being magnified greatly.

Commissioner LENNON. Are you the attorney that represents the Chinese in this district in most of their court cases, or are you just the attorney for some individual Chinese?

Mr. LYSONS. I am not attorney for any association of Chinese here, I am attorney for individuals.

Chairman WALSH. I guess that is all. That is all. I thank you. Call your Mr. BUSIEK. Woo Gen.

next.

TESTIMONY OF MR. WOO GEN.

Chairman WALSH. Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are about to give in the hearing before this commission, being the investigation into the alleged smuggling of Asiaties into the United States, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God?

Mr. Woo GEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUSIEK. Mr. Gen, please state your full name.

Mr. Woo GEN. Woo Gen.

Mr. BUSIEK. What is your business?

Mr. Woo GEN. Chinese wholesale merchant.

Mr. BUSIEK. You are interested in what business?
Mr. Woo GEN. What?

Mr. BUSIEK. What store are you interested in?

Mr. Woo GEN. Wa Chung Co.

Mr. BUSIEK. This commission is sent from Washington to make an investigation in matters of Chinese smuggling and the unlawful methods adopted, if any, by Government officials, and we are sitting here in executive session-this commission is--and no one is admitted-this is a secret session, and the commission wants to get from you what you know about the unlawful practices that have prevailed here in Seattle.

Now, are you acquainted with Frank Tape? Have you had any business dealings with him?

Mr. Woo GEN. Well, during the last year, about September, my partner had a son, that is, a minor son, come through. And he come to me, he says, "His father told me to come and ask you for money, for some money. promised to give me some money."

Mr. BUSIEK. That is, Tape came to you?

He

Mr. Woo GEN. Yes, sir. I says, "How much?" He says, "$200." "Well," I says, "Great God, what is the matter with you?" I says, "You might as well rob the man." I says, "He is a regular merchant, been in the store ever since, they can't prohibit him because he is a merchant, and that is his really son-have to give money to?" I says to him, I says, "I don't think that is right, you to ask money for that son, that boy admitted." "Yah," he says, "His testimony and his father's testimony, it is not corresponding, and I have that fixed, and it costs money to have that fixed, so as to make it correspond. the father's and the boy's." And then I phone up to his father. I says, "Did you promise to give him money?" He says, "Yes, I did." And I says, "Shall I give it to him?" He says, Yes; better give it to him." And after awhile then, Mr. Monroe come up to see me; he says, "Where is that boy?" I says, "He is here in my store." He says, "Oh, well, him and his father's testimony all mixed up, but anyhow I know the old man, he is a real merchant, and the boy looks like him. I have everything what I believe that is his own boy. No doubt that is his own boy." That is why I know Tape is taking that money himself.

66

Chairman WALSH. You didn't give the money to Tape then?
Mr. Woo GEN. I did give him the money.

Chairman WALSH. You did give him the $200?

Mr. Woo GEN. Yes.

Chairman WALSH. When did you give him this $200 with reference to the time you had this conversation with Mr. Monroe?

Mr. Woo GEN. Well, I think some time in the--I believe it was in the same day Tape came there first, and Mr. Monroe came in the evening. Commissioner O'CONNELL. You gave the money to Tape first?

Mr. Woo GEN. Yes.

Commissioner O'CONNELL, Then Mr. Monroe came and told you the boy was all right?

Mr. Woo GEN. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Now, did you give it to him in currency?

Mr. Woo GEN. I gave it to him either in currency or gold, that is.
Chairman WALSH. Yes.

Mr. Woo GEN. The both kinds, I have forgotten, it is a long time.

Chairman WALSH. Where did you get the money; did you have it in your store, or did you have to draw it from the bank?

Mr. Woo GEN. Well, I had it in my store. His father had some money deposited there in my place.

Chairman WALSH. When was that?

Mr. Woo GEN. I think it was sometime in September last year.

Chairman WALSH. Last year?

Mr. Woo GEN. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. That is the only circumstance of that kind you know of? Mr. Woo GEN. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. That will be all, then.

Mr. BUSIEK. It is common talk in Washington, isn't it, that Tape does that all the time?

Mr. Woo GEN. Well, that is the way

Mr. BUSIEK. I want to ask you one more question: Did Tape ever come to you and speak about when Inspector Bonhamn got onto the job?

Mr. Woo GEN. He didn't tell me about Bonham, but he told me about Taylor. He says. "Taylor will come around and inspect this matter. I wish you would