your certificate you come right in. Now, do you think that by virtue of enjoying that advantage you would hesitate to register, if you belonged to the privileged class? Mr. Moy. I guess they would; I guess they would be glad to, I think. I think they would be glad to. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. The advantage of this paper would be worth the trouble? Mr. Moy. There was trouble a few years ago when Commissioner John Sargent asked some of the inspectors what is best for labor departure here. Well, I told some inspector the best thing, cut out that $1,000 debt. You see I know they are lying, and the inspector know they are lying, because that is $1,000people owing $1,000 before he can come back here, but a man in here Commissioner WEINSTOCK (interrupting). Now, let us see. I want to make that straight for the record. You mean that under the present law no man can go to China unless he can first prove that he is a merchant Mr. Moy. No; the laborer. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Oh, the laborer? Mr. Moy. Yes. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. He must prove that he has $1,000 debts-that is, you mean that somebody owes him $1,000? Mr. Moy. Yes, sir. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. In order that he may have a pretext to come back? Mr. Moy. Yes, sir. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. If nobody owes him anything he can go but he can not come back? Mr. Moy. He can not come back. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Now, your criticism was that that was a bad law? Mr. Moy. That was bad. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Why? Mr. Moy. Because either I come to this country in one year, perhaps, then I get some trouble in my own home in my country, and maybe they want me to come right back to China, and then I make the $1,000 debt-lend it to somebody before I can go, and only some kind friend step forward helping each other and say, "Yes; I owe you $1,000.” Commissioner WEINSTOCK. In other words, you say that under the present law one Chinaman will perjure himself for another Chinaman and claim that the Chinaman about to depart owes him $1,000, when, as a matter of fact, he does not owe him $1,000. That is it, is it? Mr. Moy. Yes, sir. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Now, you think the law is bad because it encourages perjury? Mr. Moy. Makes him Commissioner WEINSTOCK (interrupting). And false swearing? Mr. Moy. Yes; well-of course, maybe, we can not prove-the Government can not prove they swear falsely when the man say I do owe him, and I am the interpreter, and you as inspector-you ask about it. Then you can not prove that man did not owe him. So you can not prove and you let him go, just the same. Well, of course, a merchant-want two white witnesses to prove they are merchants, acting in the store. That is perjury, too. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Yes. Now tell me, if we had all the Boston Chinamen in this room and we would explain this proposed new law to them— "First, all you laboring men must register. You merchants can register if you like. At the end of six months any laboring man found here without a certificate will be sent away." How do you think they would feel about it? Mr. Moy. I think those in the country-they are willing to do it. Of course, I do not know-they might-they may at a meeting talk it over before going to do it, of course. I do not know what those merchants are going to do, and do just the same in San Francisco, and they do it all over the United States before they are compelled to do it, and they say, "Yes. All right." And maybe they argue. Of course, I do not know what they are going to do. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. That is all, Mr. Busiek. Mr. BUSIEK. That is all with this witness. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. That is all, then, Mr. Interpreter. We will adjourn until 9.30 in the morning. (Thereupon, at 5 o'clock p. m., an adjournment was had until the following morning, Wednesday, July 8, 1914, at 9.30 o'clock a. m.) BOSTON, MASS., Wednesday, July 8, 1914–9.30 a. m. Present: Commissioners Weinstock (acting chairman), Lennon, and O'Connell. Acting Chairman WEINSTOCK. The commission will be in order. Mr. BUSIEK. Mr. Sullivan is here. Just take the stand, Mr. Sullivan, TESTIMONY OF MR. E. MARK SULLIVAN. Mr. BUSIEK. State your name? Mr. SULLIVAN. E. Mark Sullivan. Mr. BUSIEK. What is your occupation, Mr. Sullivan? Mr. SULLIVAN. Attorney at law. Mr. BUSIEK. What official position have you held recently? Mr. SULLIVAN. Assistant United States attorney for the district of Massachusetts. Mr. BUSIEK. How long ago was that? Mr. SULLIVAN. I resigned as of October 31, 1913. Mr. BUSIEK. Have you any client now that is interested in the Chinese situation in Massachusetts? Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes; I am representing a committee composed of members of the Massachusett's Laundrymen's Association. Commissioner LENNON. Is that a Chinese association? Mr. SULLIVAN. No, sir; that is a Caucasian association. Mr. BUSIEK. And what is their interest in the Chinese situation? Mr. SULLIVAN. They are concerned with the competition in their line of business as afforded them by the Chinese laundrymen of Massachusetts. Mr. BUSIEK. What does this competition amount to? Mr. SULLIVAN. Well, by way of example, I can say that it is estimated that the Chinese laundries of Boston are doing about from $40,000 to $50,000 worth of work a week. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Forty thousand dollars to fifty thousand dollars worth of work a week? Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. Commissioner LENNON. Have you made some fairly reasonable investigations to reach that conclusion? Mr. SULLIVAN. I have not; no, sir. Commissioner LENNON. But someone has? Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes. Commissioner LENNON. I did not mean that you have. Mr. BUSIEK. What investigation has been made under your direction of the Chinese situation? Mr. SULLIVAN. This association employed William J. Burns International Detective Agency for the purpose of making an investigation as to the sources of smuggling and the amount of smuggling and the number of Chinamen here unlawfully. They were left very much to their own devices-I am sorry to say, because of the point of expense. So what they did they did very well. They had men along various points of the Canadian border and at New York and Vermont, and they also had men down in Chinatown in Boston. We also had investigators at Worcester and at Springfield. The investigations along the Canadian border seemed to indicate at the time the investigation was made a suspension of smuggling, which was explained in part by this one reason that it was in the late winter and early spring when we had this investigation made, which seems not to be the time of year when the Chinamen are traveling. But we did find that there were persons at Montreal and at Rouses Point who had been making a business of smuggling in Chinamen, various means being employed. For instance, they would conceal them in freight cars or on flat cars under the lumber; or sometimes they would conceal them on boats and take them down the lake-down Lake Champlain. And they had various devices for bringing them in. But at the time we made this investigation at the Canadian border we were satisfied we were too early in our work. Then, we had men in Chinatown. We had one man named Curley who spent a good deal of time in Chinatown under the pretext that he was simply a good fellow who had a penchant for Chinese manners and Chinese customs. He was very hospitably received and quite generally received in Chinatown. Mr. BUSIEK. Who is that, Mr. Sullivan? Mr. SULLIVAN. This Curley? He was employed by the Burns Detective Agency as one of the investigators and we hope to have him here later. I have his reports with me, but I don't suppose you care to go over them, showing that the methods used in Chinatown or by the men in Chinatown for smuggling Mr. BUSIEK (interrupting). Tell us about those, please. Mr. SULLIVAN. Well, roughly-nothing new, of course, to you men, but they are brought in by boats-principally the smaller boats landing at the port of Boston-brought in from Jamaica and those other islands off the coast here. Then they are brought in now principally by way of Maine, and some are coming by way of Buffalo. Those men, we find, are required to pay anywhere from $300 to $500, $600, and even $1,000 for being brought in. Then after they are brought in, the next thing is to get a certificate to show their right to remain here, and those certificates are sold down in Chinatown at something like $100, $150, and $200 a piece. Now, the name Brown was used quite frequently in that connection, and he was spoken of as the State's attorney of Vermont, as a man who sold certificates to certain Chinamen down in Boston Chinatown who later offered them for sale to Chinamen. I have never seen one of those certificates, and it is possible from our investigation that they are not legally issued that they may be corruptly and without conscience issued. For instance, a United States commissioner some years ago, or up to some few years ago, had no authority under the law to issue a certificate; but he, having heard a case, would issue what amounted to a certificate, which might be in the nature of a certified copy of his record showing that that Chinaman by such a name was brought before him and given a hearing and discharged as one lawfully in the United States. Well, at any time subsequent to that that commissioner would readily issue a duplicate of that certificate; and so that thing has gone on, and duplicates have been issued and issued in great number, and there is no way of verifying them. There have been instances later where the photograph record of the subject investigated was retained by the commissioner, who at the issuance of the certificate attached the picture thereto. Well, I suppose if you wanted a certified copy of that now you would get it without the picture, and put your own picture on it. So those things are all marketed down here in Chinatown. Acting Chairman WEINSTOCK. Are you speaking now of present conditions? Mr. SULLIVAN. Oh, yes. Acting Chairman WEINSTOCK. Existing conditions? Mr. SULLIVAN. Oh, yes; these things I have discussed with Mr. Larned. Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes; I have discussed this situation with Mr. Larned at Washington. Let me confine myself, however, to Curley's reports; but if he is here he can probably do a good deal better than I can do. His intimate association with some of those people in Chinatown gave him proper opportunity for obtaining from them statements regarding their residence in the United States; and who have records of all those and his reports. Those men have the names and we had what we thought was sufficient evidence to bring in and cause to be ordered to be deported about 18 or 20 Chinamen in Chinatown from whom he had sufficient admissions to warrant their being ordered deported on the ground that they were not here lawfully; and he had corroborating evidence. He was accompanied on nearly all of these occasions when these admissions were made by one other investigator. They were very cordially received, and when we were terminating their employment in Chinatown it became necessary to get rid of these fellows without creating any suspicion. So one fellow who was with Curley announced that he had to go to New York on business and would not be back for several months. So he was given a farewell party Acting Chairman WEINSTOCK (interrupting). On what ground were they able Mr. SULLIVAN (interrupting). Well, they were simply good fellows around Chinatown, who had a penchant for Chinese customs and the manners, and liked to frequent and habituate Chinese restaurants, so that they even went back into the cooking room of the restaurants and there found working in the various restaurants a number of Chinese boys. Some would say that they went to school, and, in most instances, they observed that the boys never went to school. He was always there. They frequented Chinese launderies. The thing went so far that some of the Chinamen here made arrangements with them that is, to the extent of making terms with them for bringing in China men from Jamaica-and said if that venture was successful they had about 20 or 30 more Chinamen on the Mexican border who were anxious to come in. Of course, these records all show the names of these people who are interested in this work, and especially interested in this and particularly in negotiating with these men to do that work; and I should be glad, if you men want, to leave with you Curley's reports to me. Mr. BUSIEK. We would like that very much, Mr. Sullivan, and we will make copies and return them. Mr. SULLIVAN. If you will return them. I have all these records here (A considerable number of documents were here turned over to Mr. Busiek by Mr. Sullivan.) further. Commissioner LENNON. I would like to ask one question there before going Did your association make any effort to verify as to the character of this Mr. Curley? You know there are all kinds of men in the detective business. Mr. SULLIVAN. No, sir. Commissioner LENNON (interrupting). Or did his work verify itself? Mr. SULLIVAN. We felt satisfied with Curley to a degree that we never accorded to some of the other investigators. I met him frequently, and I know something of this Chinese business Commissioner LENNON (interrupting). You are convinced he was not just making a report favorable to your side in order to hold his job? Mr. SULLIVAN. No; I feel quite convinced of that because his reports seem very modest, and there are times when there were things missing which he might easily have supplied to our great satisfaction, and he frankly admitted that he could not. Acting Chairman WEINSTOCK. Now, as I understand it, the laundry association employed you? Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. Acting Chairman WEINSTOCK. And you employed the Burns Detective Agency? Mr. SULLIVAN. No; they employed the Burns Detective Agency direct. Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. Acting Chairman WEINSTOCK. And the Burns agency then detailed Mr. Curley to make this investigation? Mr. SULLIVAN. Oh, they detailed-they must have had altogether, probably 15 different operators at different times. For instance, they had different operators who shadowed Sullivan of the Immigration Bureau. They had operators shadow McCabe; they had operators who talked with these men on different pretexts; they had operators to shadow Daley, who was known as Capt. Daley, and who was arrested and convicted of Chinese smuggling; we had operators shadow Lennon; we had operators shadow Goodman Phillips; we had operators who talked with those men under various pretexts, and who boarded in the same house with Goodman Phillips; his family was said to be in California; and we followed them through the Burns's agency in San Francisco, Cal.; but we later, however, located Goodman Phillips himself in Boston. We could not discover what his business was here. He was boarding in a house kept by a German woman, I think, on Legrand Street-that is down back of the Hotel Touraine-and we couldn't seem to find out what his business was here. He was very careful, of course. He had been caught so many times by investigators that it is very difficult to get him to talk. We had a man boarding there in the house with him. So, after a while we discontinued our investigation on him, because it was not leading to anything excepting expense. So that some of our investigators did not return us anything; and then there were investigators along the Canadian border-some men who simply went up there and returned a bill of expense. For instance, one man was up there and was drunk a week and said he broke his arm. And then we got reports all in one day-simulated reports. I have tried to mark these, for instance, and indexed these under McCabe, and McCabe's rope; and McCabe's rope means that an operator conversed with him on some pretext or other, for instance, one went in and was anxious to get help for a sardine factory in Maine, but without any success; and so there I use the word "rope." That means conversed with him under some pretext and shadowed him. And we shadowed Chin Kay Soo, and also had men "roping" Chin Kay Soo. He is one of the big men in Chinatown, is interested in a number of restaurants in Boston, and a man who also has a large wet-wash laundry. Acting Chairman WEINSTOCK. After you shadow these people some time don't they get suspicions, and after they get suspicious isn't it very difficult to shadow them? He Mr. SULLIVAN. Why, yes. For instance, we feel quite convinced that Phillips suspected that the operator we had boarding in the house with him was there to rope him. We feel quite convinced that Sullivan was aware that he was being followed one day, and that he became aware of that up here in this department store of Houghton & Dutton; and since then I have learned through McCabe and Sullivan-I have told these men that they were shadowed. I will tell you why presently, because I was talking to Sullivan and he thought he was shadowed, and only here the other day he said to me, Sullivan, your men are still shadowing McCabe and myself." I said, "No; we are not." says, “I know we are being shadowed." I says, “Certainly not by our people or with my knowledge." And he went on to tell me why he thought they were being shadowed-that an officer told McCabe, for instance, that there was a man who had been hanging about in the vicinity of his house for a good many days, and the officer asked him what he was doing there and he excused his presence on the ground that he was doing detective work; and Sullivan says that he-they test themselves, of course, from time to time to see if they are being shadowed. Now, these reports I will let you have, but I will ask you to return them. For instance, we had operators at Montreal; St. Albans, Vt.; Newport, Vt.; and Rouses Point, Vt. That is along the Canadian border. And we had them also at Springfield and Worcester. A little while ago I said that Curley's investigation led him into close association with a number of Chinamen down in Chinatown and particularly with some who were anxious to make an importation of Chinese from Jamaica and Mexico, and among those prominently mentioned were Charley Joe and Will Joe Yung. All those are mentioned with great detail in those reports, and I am going to leave those with you. Now, I was going to say-well, it escapes me. I may return to it in some natural order of suggestion later. It will come back to me again, but I will tell you now what later we did. I told my clients after receiving the evidence we had regarding certain Chinamen in Chinatown in Boston as reported to us by Curley, that I felt that the evidence was sufficient to justify an order of deportation in each of those cases, that it would not be sufficient before Commissioner Hayes, of Boston. Now, in Boston we have four United States commissioners-Commissioner Hayes, Commissioner Darling, who is the clerk of the United States district court, and Commissioner Hale, and Commissioner Grinnell. Hale and Grinnell are partners in a law firm. But it is understood that these commissioners are not to sit except in the absence or vacation of Commissioner Hayes. Mr. BUSIEK. With whom is that understanding had? Mr. SULLIVAN. That understanding is had amongst those commissioners and the judge of the district court. Mr. BUSIEK. The judge appointing the commissioners? Mr. SULLIVAN. The judge appointing the commissioners. Acting Chairman WEINSTOCK. What are the powers of the commissioner? Mr. SULLIVAN. The powers in general of a United States commissioner are these: On proper evidence he may issue a warrant for the arrest of the person complained of on proper complaint. He may arraign prisoners brought before him on original complaints, whether it be on original complaints from this district, or upon complaints taken out in this district for the arrest of fugitives Mr. BUSIEK. Mr. Weinstock had reference merely to Chinese matters. Mr. SULLIVAN. Oh, Chinese? This is the one instance where the commissioner has what we call original and final jurisdiction. The commissioner in all other matters simply hears cases on the question of probable cause, to bind over. I don't know how many of you are lawyers Acting Chairman WEINSTOCK. To be held for the court? Mr. SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. Commissioner LENNON. We are all pretty familiar with legal matters. Mr. SULLIVAN. You are? Very well. This is one case where he has final jurisdiction. Under the statute jurisdiction over these matters is in the district court; but it is shared also concurrently by the United States commissioner, and the statute provides that the Chinaman may appeal from the decision of the commissioner to the United States judge-to the judge of the United States court-but it says nothing about the appeal of the United States |