Mr. NEILL. Then it is about 14 per cent above what the British act would reduce it? Mr. FRANKLIN. Yes. Mr. NEILL. On what percentage of the trips during the year does the Baltic carry over 86 per cent of its carrying capacity of steerage passengers? Mr. FRANKLIN. I should say it depends upon how she fits in the schedule. If she fits in just right she would get two trips full capacity, but only about two ships in each line would get it, because running four ships in a line two of them would not fit in for the month. Two might just catch two voyages. Mr. NEILL. Then on all the other voyages this reduction would practically be of no consequence? Mr. FRANKLIN. It is null and void really, except now that the eastbound is increasing, it would shut people out from going, as it stands to-day. The eastbound during 1907 was two-fifths of the westbound, and then the rush was only during the last six weeks. It did not have time to work itself out, and it is going on now tremendously. Mr. BENNET. Five hundred and sixty-two thousand third-class passengers left this country in 1907. Mr. FRANKLIN. And about 1,250,000, in round numbers, came in. Mr. NEILL. Aside from this question, do the companies keep records of returning steerage passengers? Mr. FRANKLIN. Oh, absolutely. I can show you them right here. The CHAIRMAN. The law requires that. Mr. NEILL. How long have you kept them? Mr. FRANKLIN. I should say for fifteen years; ten years, anyway. Here are the records [exhibiting] east and west bound from 1893 to 1906. The first two years are for eastbound only. Mr. NEILL. Are those by age and sex? Mr. FRANKLIN. No, sir. Mr. LATIMER. Would you mind running over those figures? I should like to see about what has been the average. Mr. FRANKLIN. Shall I call the eastbound right down and then the westbound right down, which will show the increase? Mr. LATIMER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Beginning when? Mr. FRANKLIN. With 1895. Mr. BENNET. Why not call the eastbound and westbound for the same year? This is a table showing the third-class passenger carryings by all lines to all ports the calendar years 1893 and 1894, eastbound only, and 1895 to 1906, inclusive, east and west bound. These figures include Canada and the United States. For 1893 the east-bound were 165,086; for 1894, 210,399. For 1895, westbound, 328,246; eastbound, 154,071; 1896, westbound, 314,426; eastbound, 127,760; 1897, westbound, 240,285; eastbound, 129,482; 1898, westbound, 274,308; eastbound, 124,516; 1899, westbound, 388,911; eastbound, 118,212; 1900, westbound, 507,755; eastbound, 156,320; 1901, westbound, 549,526; eastbound, 142,677; 1902, westbound, 763,730; eastbound, 178,562; 1903, westbound, 894,926; eastbound, 254,220; 1904, westbound, 767,880; eastbound, 374,263; 1905, westbound, 1,010,346; eastbound, 246,480; 1906, westbound, 1,231,146; eastbound, 341,368. Mr. BURNETT. How many returned in the last two months? Mr. FRANKLIN. I could not tell you. Mr. BURNETT. Approximately? Mr. FRANKLIN. Every ship from about the middle of November, or the first week in November, to the end of the year was full. Mr. BURNETT. Going east? Mr. FRANKLIN. Going east. Mr. LATIMER. Is it going on now? Mr. FRANKLIN. Now; particularly to the Continent and Italy. The Italian ships have not been absolutely full. The continental ships all have been. The movement so far this year, up to to-day, has been 7,000 coming into the country. The CHAIRMAN. Since the 1st of January? Mr. FRANKLIN. Yes. There have come into the country 7,138; there have gone out of the country 30,056-4 to 1. Mr. LODGE. Since when? Mr. FRANKLIN. Since January 1. All of the continental ships eastbound for the past eight weeks have been full; every one of them. The Italians dropped off about the first of the year, but the dropping off about the 1st of January was because the people could not get their money out of the banks. If you will allow me, I will read this suggested amendment for discussion. The CHAIRMAN. Will you please insert in the record the tables of statistics you have there? Mr. FRANKLIN. Yes, sir. Mr. LODGE. Give the stenographer everything you would like to have incorporated in the report. The tables referred to are as follows: JANUARY 17, 1908. Total number second and third class passengers, United States and Canadian ports, reported 1908, as compared with 1907, same period. We include II cabin because the increase indicates the movement to Europe of well-to-do aliens. Totals, 1907, all ports United States and Canada, as compared with 1906. b Philadelphia, eastbound steerage divided 361 Italian, 287 British, etc. c Canopic, westbound steerage divided 276 Italian, 179 Azores; eastbound steerage divided 672 Italian, 131 Azores. d Oceanic, eastbound steerage divided 55 Italian, 975 British, etc. • Carmania, eastbound steerage divided 534 Italian, 1,842 continental. f La Lorraine, eastbound steerage divided 449 Italian, 361 continental. Mr. BURNETT. In that connection, have you anything showing the amount of money which returning immigrants carried with them per capita? Mr. FRANKLIN. No; there have been a lot of calculations made, but no one can tell. Some of the immigrants carry it around them in belts; others have gold; and you can not tell anything about it. Then they spend a lot of money before they get off. They come down thinking they will buy third-class tickets, but they buy second-class tickets, because there are no accommodations for them in the third class. Mr. BURNETT. Is that due to the fact that there is no room for them, or that the third-class accommodations are not good enough for them? Mr. FRANKLIN. Because the steamers could not accommodate them on account of the rush to the Continent, it has been so great. Then, again, they have plenty of money. It is not like when they come over. Mr. LATIMER. It has been a great thing for the steamship companies? Mr. FRANKLIN. It has been. The westbound business would break them. We had the Arabic sail yesterday from the other side, and she carried only 90 third-class passengers. Ordinarily she never thinks of going with less than 300. The eastbound traffic is making up for the losses westbound. We have to make it in some way or other, or we would go out of business. This is the suggested amendment: "In a steamship.-(1) Passengers shall not be carried on any deck below the deck which is next below the water line, which, for purposes of this act, is designated the lowest passenger deck." As I have explained to you, that really does not change the location in which the third-class passengers are to be carried. It only more clearly defines it. That is the only difference. Mr. BENNET. Are all these amendments in strict accordance with the British Board of Trade regulations? Mr. FRANKLIN. Strictly in accordance with the British Board of Trade regulations In every way they are absolutely consistent with the Board of Trade regulations. Mr. LODGE. And are almost in the same words? Mr. FRANKLIN. Almost. We have used as closely as we could the same words. We have avoided putting in anything extraneous. There have been a lot of suggestions to put in additional things, but we have said we would not consider them. I read again from the proposed amendment: "No greater number of steerage passengers may be carried on the lowest passenger deck than in the proportion of one statute adult to every 18 clear superficial feet of deck allotted to their use; and "No greater number of steerage passengers may be carried on a passenger deck than in the proportion of one statute adult to every 15 clear superficial feet of deck allotted to their use. "Provided, That if the height between the lowest passenger deck and the deck immediately above it is less than 7 feet, and the aperatures, exclusive of side scuttles, through which light and air are admitted are less in size than in the proportion of 3 square feet to every 100 superficial feet of that deck, no greater number of passengers shall be carried on that deck than in the proportion of one statute adult to every 25 clear superficial feet thereof, and passengers shall not be carried on the lowest passenger deck unless it be efficiently lighted.' That is where the penalty comes in for not having 7 feet high space. Provided further, That a steamship under this act, whatever be the superficial space of the passenger decks and of the lowest passenger deck, shall not carry a greater number of steerage passengers on the whole than in the proportion of one statute adult to every 5 superficial feet of air or promenade space provided on a deck so open as not to be included in the tonnage and this space shall not be counted or included in the area available for any other passengers." Mr. BENNET. Would you mind reading that again? I did not quite grasp it. Mr. LODGE. That is for the deck space? this sheet, if you would like to see them. We have the British regulations here on Mr. LODGE. I have just given a copy to Mr. Bennet. Mr. BENNET. Now you need not read it. I can read it. Mr. LODGE. I suggest that the English Board of Trade regulations be printed with the report of this hearing. The CHAIRMAN. That is a good suggestion. Mr. BENNET. That is something we have not in our law? Mr. FRANKLIN. No; you have not. Mr. LODGE. It is a very good provision. Mr. FRANKLIN. It is a very excellent provision. As Mr. Jenks clearly pointed out, so far as the regular lines are concerned, competition would make you give it, but for the outside trade it is a very good thing. If a man wanted to rush into the trade Mr. BENNET. But a man does not rush hurriedly into the Italian trade? Mr. BENNET. But he could not get in under the Italian regulations. "Provided further, That in the measurement of the passenger decks and the lowest passenger deck, the space occupied by the personal luggage of the steerage passengers which is carried there shall be included, and also any space occupied by public rooms, lavatories, and bathrooms exclusively appropriated to the use of the steerage passengers; but the space in any place appropriated to the use of steerage passengers in which they sleep shall not be less than 15 superficial feet in the case of the lowest passenger deck, and 12 superficial feet in the case of a passenger deck— The upper passenger decks. These gentlemen have reminded me of an example I gave them yesterday when we were discussing this matter which I have not brought out to-day, and that is this: If it were a question of occupying a very small hall bedroom for sleeping purposes, with a lounging room nearby or attached, which one had the privilege of using, or occupying a slightly larger hall bedroom in which one had to spend his entire time, one would choose, no doubt, the room giving him the privilege of the lounging room. That is just our point. 79521°-VOL 39-11-28 Mr. BENNET. Mr. Franklin, while you are on your feet, what do you think of the regulation or law that the Italians have in relation to the speed of vessels; the number of days they are to be at sea, with reference to carrying third-class passengers? Mr. FRANKLIN. I think it is a good thing to have people take sufficient interest in seeing that immigrants are not put on ships of the speed of 8 or 9 knots, or something of that kind. However, it is a matter which competition will regulate entirely. Mr. BENNET. There are ships sailing from German ports which take sixteen, seventeen, and eighteen days to cross the Atlantic? Mr. FRANKLIN. Yes, sir. Mr. BENNET. What do you think of a proposition to penalize long voyages like that? Mr. FRANKLIN. The only basis would be to say that a ship carrying third-class passengers must have a steaming capacity of so many knots. I myself think it is an absolutely unnecessary regulation. Mr. BENNET. What do you think would regulate it in time? Mr. FRANKLIN. Oh, competition will settle it. People will not travel on slower steamers except in the short hurry season. Mr. BURNETT. It would be a very unhealthy voyage? Mr. FRANKLIN. A very healthy voyage. Mr. BURNETT. For that length of time? Mr. FRANKLIN. Yes, sir. When I go myself I always go on the slowest ship. Mr. FRANKLIN. The passengers have never been more comfortable. They do not want to get off. Half of the third class who embark do not know how to eat with their knives and forks. The plan of having their women and children sit down and have a steward bring them three meals a day and supper at night is something they never heard of. We had a letter, a most interesting one, which we read yesterday, from a passenger describing a trip. Mr. BENNET. I agree with you that from the southern ports there are thousands of people coming who have never in their lives eaten such food as they get on the steamers. Mr. FRANKLIN. And have never been so comfortable. Mr. BURNETT. But it would seem that keeping them congested so long would not be healthy. Mr. FRANKLIN. You might say it is less healthy Mr. BURNETT. That is the question I asked you, and understood you to say that it was not less healthy. Mr. FRANKLIN. From a sanitary standpoint you may say it is not healthy, but the passengers get a lot of rest and air. You must remember, too, that on the slower ships they get more air space. They get up on the decks. Those vessels do not carry first and second class passengers. Mr. BENNET. Did the British Board of Trade go into the question of speed? The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions that any gentleman desires to ask Mr. Franklin? [A pause.] If not, are there any others who desire to be heard? Mr. NEALE. Not at present. Probably a little later on Mr. Spalding, of Boston, would like to make a few observations. Mr. FRANKLIN (to Mr. Latimer). Have I made clear the point you asked me about the space? Mr. LATIMER. I think so. Mr. BURNETT. What is the British law with regard to the fine? Do they fine you for each trip you make when you do not comply with the law? Mr. FRANKLIN. Yes; the captain would be fined each trip. Mr. BURNETT. Not for each passenger? Mr. FRANKLIN. I do not think it is based Mr. LAWSON SANFORD. He is liable to a fine of not exceeding £500. Mr. FRANKLIN. You probably misunderstood me when I used the word "fine." If you do not provide these accommodations or do not have certain openings in the side, you would be fined by being compelled to give the passenger more space. The word was improperly used. When you asked me the question, I thought you referred to fines directly imposed upon the steamship companies. Mr. BURNETT. I understood from your remarks that there were actual fines. Mr. BENNET. You would stay in port until you complied with the law? |