floor on which it is to be stored, the car again placed on transfer table and finally taken to the track on which it is to remain for the night. This same process has to be gone over again in the morning, with the exception of putting the car over the inspection pit on the ground floor. This requires considerable time and labor.

On account of extremely short headway under which cars are operated, there is no time whatever at the terminals of the various lines for cleaning cars, as is possible on steam and many electric roads. In order to avoid congestion, it is necessary that these cars be shifted and sent out again as fast as possible. A large percentage of the cars which are taken out of the depot in the morning are kept on the road until late at night and not turned into depot unless there is some defect or block on the line. All cars, therefore, have to be cleaned while they are stored in the depot.

Up to within a year ago all the car cleaning, such as sweeping, dusting, cleaning windows, washing, etc., was done at night; but on account of the crowded conditions in the depot and better work being obtained by men during the day, a change was made leaving only enough men on nights to sweep the floors and platforms of all cars, and to clean the windows and wipe off the interior of a sufficient number of cars that would be required for service up to about 6.30 A. M. The day men reporting at 6 A. M. continue the work where the night men left off.

Nearly all of our cars are equipped with wooden floor mats; these are removed from the cars, the car swept and the mats not put back into the cars until the motor inspectors, who have to raise the trap doors, are through with their work.

The interior of cars are wiped off with dry waste and occasionally a damp cloth. The same method being followed for cleaning windows and ventilators. The washing of car bodies by men in the car houses is done with water only, as the limited amount of time when cars are in depot precludes the possibility of using soap; soap being used only when the cars are taken to the shop, where they are thoroughly washed, both inside and outside. This work is done by men who are better paid than the average car cleaner. The same process of cleaning cars in the shop is also followed when the cars are taken in to be painted or varnished.

The cleaning of cars by compressed air was first tried by this company about eight years ago, during the time cable cars were run on Broadway and Columbus Avenue. While this was an advantage over the old method of cleaning carpets, its use was discontinued on account of the many complaints received from people living in the neighborhood of the depot.

About two years ago the vacuum system was tried in a very small way, enough, however, to see that it had many advantages. It is a question whether it would be advisable to install such a permanent system as suggested by Mr. Flory, where we have such a large number of car houses where car cleaning has to be done. What would seem to be the most feasible plan in this city would be to install the vacuum system on a flat car. This car, equipped with its own motive power, could be

taken from one depot to another at a very short notice. The cost of maintaining such an equipment, as well as the cost of installation, would be quite small and it would appear to be the most economical system that could be obtained.

The PRESIDENT-Mr. W. J. Knox, of Du Bois, Mechanical Engineer of the Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh Railroad Co.

MR. KNOX-When I was asked by our Superintendent of Motive Power if I would like to be present at a meeting of the New York Railroad Club and participate in the discussion of a paper on "Car Cleaning," to be read by Mr. Flory, I said very quickly, "Yes, sir;" and I believe that if each and every one of you gentlemen were pastured in a beautiful little Pennsylvania inland town, you, too, would have done likewise, be your knowledge of the subject ever so limited; for who does not like to visit New York, and who would not gladly be present at a meeting of this Club? My business here this evening is principally to listen and learn.

Climatic conditions, the character of the country traversed, and the kind of fuel burned, to some extent, affects the life of the varnish and governs to a considerable degree the detail of caring for and cleaning cars; however, the general methods followed by all are fairly uniform.

Two or three years ago the technical press published illustrations and descriptive matter of a plant erected by our English cousins to clean the entire exterior of cars by one or two passes between a system of sprays and brushes. I presume were it not for fear of causing the collapse of the sash, etc., our vacuum friends would close all openings save one, and at a single great gulp remove all dust and dirt from the interior of the car.

After all, with results anything like equal, the cheapest method will generally be considered the best. Mr. Flory has shown a great labor saving in the actual cleaning process by the operation of a vacuum plant, and this method from a sanitary point of view is easily the best. Where compressed air has been employed, an enlargement of the existing air brake plant carrying anywhere from sixty to one hundred pounds pressure has generally been made. To furnish air at this pressure costs considerably more, and the losses due to leakage from defective hose and fittings and by carelessness of operators will be greater than when a vacuum corresponding to eight or ten pounds pressure is employed.

I am of the opinion that the results and cost with compressed air, while not perhaps so cheap or desirable as with the vacuum system, would be more satisfactory than at present if a lower pressure and greater volume were used in the operation.

The following figures for labor of cleaning are given by Mr. Flory:

Central of N. J., seats and backs 1 h.

Brushing, wiping, etc.

Total......

For comparison, why is labor per hour not 15¢, or a
total of

131⁄2¢

του

232¢

25¢

However, per month, 1,346 cars cleaned by 12 men, which at $1.50 per 10 h. work would make the actual cost per car 40¢.

This is eight cents less than the average given for three roads, but ten cents greater than for some one road. How much of the reduction in cost is due to the system, and how much to organization?

From the evidence presented, it seems to me certain that if a large number of cars are to be cared for at a terminal, the installation of a plant as described is desirable; if, however, but few cars are handled and compressed air lines are required for brake work, it is doubtful if results would warrant the cost.

The PRESIDENT-Mr. F. W. Brazier, Superintendent of Rolling Stock of the New York Central & Hudson River Railroad.

MR. BRAZIER-Mr. President and gentlemen: After listening to Mr. Chamberlin and the two speakers who preceded him-Mr. Gohen and Mr. Butts-who, I think, are among the most reliable experts in the United States on this subject, as they are both practical painters, I feel that there is very little left for me to say on the subject that will be of interest or value. However, I will take this opportunity to say that Mr. Gohen is one of the pioneers in the field of "Car Cleaning," and an undisputed authority on the best methods for outside cleaning of cars, as was evidenced by the good condition in which he kept the C. & O. and Big Four equipment when he was in charge of it on those roads.

I notice that three mechanical engineers are on the list of speakers tonight, and that they have taken up the theory of car cleaning. However, there is much in the practical details of this question which they can hardly appreciate unless they are actually engaged in cleaning cars. The mechanical engineers have told us what the plant will cost and all about its operations, but I think it would be safe to add considerable to the figures given for the wear and tear of the plant; or in other words, the figure quoted, thirteen and one-half cents for cleaning the inside of a car, simply means the actual time of the man using the hose with the vacuum system. About one hundred per cent. should be added to this to cover the cost of producing the air, maintaining the plant, wearing out of the hose, etc.

Regarding the vacuum system in use on the Central Railroad of New Jersey: The New York Central is, as the saying goes, "up against it," on account of the manner in which we have to try to clean passenger cars at the New York terminals. When some trains come into the station the cars have to receive a hurried cleaning and are immediately put into other trains going out. Consequently it is rather difficult to make comparisons

between roads on the cost of cleaning. I was in hopes that Mr. Chamberlain would give you the cost for labor on the New York Central for car cleaning. It is in the neighborhood of $225,000 per year. Am I right, Mr. Chamberlain?

MR. CHAMBERLIN-It is more than that.

MR. BRAZIER-Our trouble on the New York Central is that we have not passenger equipment enough to fully protect our shops and get our cars through the shops as often as we would like for general overhauling and cleaning.

The emulsion cleaner, which we have used on the outside of our cars, has helped keep our equipment in good shape, and we have found it very satisfactory. Our method is as follows: We go over our passenger equipment cars with damp waste saturated with thinner oil, and the result of this treatment is that the car is given a good, bright surface. We have had some cars which have run from twelve to twenty-two months on which nothing but the emulsion cleaner and thinner oil were used. The cars to which I refer may be seen on our Lake Shore Limited and Twentieth Century Limited trains. Consequently I am a firm believer in what we term "E" cleaning; that is, the cleaning of a car every three months if it requires it, which is our practice, and which consists in giving a car a thorough scrubbing with the emulsion cleaner.

Regarding the figures quoted in the paper just read, will say we clean about 6,027 cars per month on an average at Mott Haven, but as I said. in the beginning, it is pretty hard to make comparisons on costs between different roads. It is a good deal like the locomotive performance sheets gotten out by different roads. Unless you know just what enters into these statements you cannot make comparisons between different roads. As for instance, some roads charge to freight repairs the cost of grain doors and inside lining for shipping of grain, while by others it is charged off to operating expenses. And so it is with all figures that are gotten up by railroads; unless every detail is known, it is unfair to make comparisons between different roads on costs.

The vacuum system is certainly here to stay, and no doubt the New York Central will have to adopt some system of this kind when we get our new station built, in order to prevent the accumulation of dirt in and around our passenger station.

We have undertaken in the past to make a price per car for the cost of air, but it has been largely guesswork. However, it would not be less than fifteen cents per car, no matter whether the vacuum system or the blowing-out system is used.

This subject is very interesting and I listened with a great deal of satisfaction to the remarks of Mr. Gohen, and will say when I was out West we used formaldehyde gas in cars that had been occupied by invalids or sick people.

I thank you for your attention and will conclude by saying I have no doubt that this discussion will be of benefit to all concerned.

The PRESIDENT-There were a number of gentlemen connected with the various roads who signified a desire to say something on this important subject. I am not sure whether they are present or not. I will call off the names: Mr. G. W. Van Buren, Division Car Foreman, Eastern Division, Canadian Pacific Railway; Mr. J. L. Sheehan, General Car Inspector, New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad.

MR. SHEEHAN-Mr. President and gentlemen: I do not know that I can add anything to what has been said on the subject of car cleaning here to-night, except that we have at Boston a vacuum cleaner that is a kind of a home-made affair, but with it we can clean a car of forty seats in fifty minutes. We use compressed air to make our vacuum. One of the gentlemen spoke about turning compressed air into the hose. We can do this by having a cut-out valve and use the same hose that we use with the vacuum. These cleaners we are making up and arranging to send out to various points on our lines where we have compressed air plants for use in cleaning cushions and carpets. The outside cleaning has already been described, so I will not say anything on that subject.

MR. VAN BUREN-I am afraid our company made a mistake in sending me down among these orators, because I am not an orator. The subject has been so well gone over that I do not know that I can enlighten you on any points. I have learned a few things to-night, but not as much as I would like, about this vacuum cleaner system. I hope to have the opportunity of inspecting this system in the Central New Jersey yards here before I go back.

We have made some experiments in vacuum cleaning, but I cannot say that they were satisfactory. In fact, my experience was rather disheartening. We used a somewhat different system; I believe it was what is known as the "dry filter."

Most of you are probably aware that we have to clean not only our own sleeping and dining cars and other classes of equipment such as are used on American roads, but we also handle various types of cars which are seldom seen in the States, and we operate them under conditions which I think are never met with on this side of the line.

We undertook to clean thoroughly two sleeping cars which had just returned from the Pacific Coast.

When I use the word "thoroughly," you will understand that it means an attempt to clean every part of the car. We send cars out under the belief that they are thoroughly clean; but I doubt if any man in the room ever saw a sleeping car, or, in fact, any car thoroughly cleaned. If you make a close inspection you will always find something to criticize. In our experiment we had two men and a woman in one sleeping car, while the vacuum people had the same amount of help in another car.