and Canada, the political situation is absolutely settled and stable. In addition to that, we have had on the boundary an extremely efficient commissioner who has been running the affairs of that commission on behalf of the United States. There has been some doubt, especially under the administration of Mr. John Wesley Gaines, the commissioner to the South, whether the work there was being done wisely and whether it was useful work.

BOUNDARY COMMISSION, UNITED STATES AND CANADA.

Mr. HOUGHTON. What is the imperative element in connection with the Alaska-Canada boundary?

Mr. CARR. I would say in a word or so that this work of agreeing on the boundary line between the United States and Canada is a treaty obligation undertaken by virtue of a treaty between the United States and Great Britain. It has been going on for a long period of years. It is now virtually nearing completion. The appropriations have been gradually decreased until the estimate for 1921 is only $55,000 as against $250,000 and $300,000 in past years. It would really be a pity to stop that work now when it is so near completion, and it will take only a short time longer, I think. I do not think it will occupy more than a year or so to have the whole work completed.

There is an increase here of $15,000, which is for the express purpose of re-marking in a little more detailed manner the boundary out in Western Canada so as to fix the ownership of certain mining properties which have been opened up out there, and the work, I think, has extended there so as to bring the question of the boundary into dispute, as to whether the properties are in British or American territory. So that, I think, to carry this particular work on would be not only in the interest of the Government but in the interest of our own people out there.

Mr. MASON. Twenty years ago, when we made that treaty, I remember seeing them at work on that boundary. That was 20 years ago. This is under the same treaty, is it not, and the work has not yet been completed?

Mr. TEMPLE. The treaty was made in 1908.

Mr. MASON. There was a treaty made in 1898 in regard to Alaska? Mr. CARR. They have come from the Arctic Circle all the way down the west side and then across from the Pacific to the eastern end of Maine and along the St. Lawrence River, and they have practically marked the entire boundary now. The only part remaining to be completed is that in the eastern part of the United States, a short stretch there, and this part in British Columbia, which needs to be marked in more detail for the benefit of American mining interests, and a short distance in Minnesota.

Mr. TEMPLE. There is a part in Maine, and some in New York, and a part in Minnesota that has not yet been marked.

Mr. ROGERS. On pages 4 and 5 of the letter of the Secretary of State in explanation of the items of the bill, you will find a fairly detailed statement of the purposes and basis of the expenditures under this item.

Are there any other questions on any of the items down to the bottom of page 13? If not, the next new item is on page 14, provid

ing for the International Prison Commission. Is that a treaty obligation, Mr. Carr?

INTERNATIONAL PRISON COMMISSION.

Mr. CARR. That is not a treaty obligation, but it is an obligation that was undertaken by virtue of a provision in a law enacted by Congress. For example, the diplomatic and consular appropriation bill for the year ending June 30, 1913, contained the language

That the United States shall continue as an adhering member of the International Prison Commission and participate in the work of the said commission, and the Secretary of the Treasury be, and is hereby, authorized to pay the pro rata share of the United States in the administrative expenses of the International Prison Commission and the necessary expenses of a commissioner to represent the United States on the said commission at its annual meetings, together with necessary clerical and other expenses, out of any money which shall be appropriated for such purpose from time to time by Congress.

So the appropriations for the years from 1916 to 1919, inclusive, were made for that purpose, but so far Congress has not made an appropriation for the current fiscal year.

Mr. BEGG. Is the commission still functioning?

Mr. CARR. It is functioning so far as it can, without any money. Mr. BEGG. What is the purpose of the commission-investigation, or something else?

Mr. CARR. Investigation, and considering ways and means to improve prison legislation in the different countries in reference to the treatment of prisoners, the general improvement of prisons, and so forth. I think they have really done a very useful work in very many ways.

We have found it advisable in view of the moral obligation of the United States as a member of this commission to pay this pro rata share of the expenses of the commission, or its quota, to ask Congress to appropriate as a deficiency the amount which it failed to appropriate for the current year, and that is now before the Committee on Appropriations.

Mr. BEGG. Will $2,550 be sufficient to pay our share of the expenses and the commissioner's salary?

Mr. CARR. I think the commissioner gets no salary. That amount is practically all for expenses. That is about all that is paid under that item.

Mr. HOUGHTON. In the act you referred to you say that the Secretary of the Treasury was directed to pay these expenses?

Mr. CARR. Yes.

Mr. ROGERS. The letter of the Secretary of State, in explaining this item, on page 6, says that "Appropriations for the years 1916-1919, inclusive, were $2,250." The amount asked for here is $2,550. Which is the correct amount?

Mr. CARR. The $2,550 is the correct amount.

Mr. ACKERMAN. Is the amount of our share based on a percentage of the total cost of the prison commission, or is it simply an arbitrary sum?

Mr. CARR. The quota is based upon population, as in the case of many of those commissions.

Mr. TEMPLE. It ranges between 25 and 50 francs per million of population.

Mr. ACKERMAN. What is the total amount of the expenses of the commission a year?

Mr. CARR. Last year the accounts audited up to June 30, 1919, amounted to $1,513, but that did not include all the expenses.

What

Mr. ACKERMAN. That was the share of this Government. was the entire cost of maintaining the International Prison Commission?

Mr. CARR. That I can not tell you.

Mr. BEGG. Can you tell me readily what countries are participating in the work of this commission?

Mr. CARR. There were 38 countries represented in the congress of 1910, and 20 countries are adhering members of the commission. I do not have the names of the countries here, but they would include practically all the important countries. This prison commission, by the way, exists by virtue of the initiative of the United States itself, which under the authority of a joint resolution of Congress in 1871, sent a commissioner to Europe for the purpose of getting other nations interested in this subject, and the United States has been represented at the various conferences held in Stockholm, in Rome, St. Petersburg, Paris, Brussels, Washington, London, and so forth.

Mr. BEGG. May I ask you another question?

Mr. CARR. Yes.

Mr. BEGG. As I understand it, the commission has been in existence since 1916, and we made appropriations from 1916 to 1919. Have we been paying any since then?

Mr. CARR. We had been paying for some years before this time. Mr. ROGERS. Since 1896?

Mr. CARR. Yes.

Mr. BEGG. I would like to ask another question. Have they done anything more than to investigate?

Mr. CARR. Yes; I think they have done a great deal. For instance, they make a report annually.

Mr. BEGG. To whom?

Mr. CARR. To the various Governments. The report is usually printed by Congress.

Mr. BEGG. It stops there, does it not?

Mr. CARR. I think they have had considerable effect on general prison administration throughout the world.

Mr. TEMPLE. That is all they can do. It is then up to the various Governments. As I understand it, the indeterminate sentence and parole are the results of their investigations and reports.

Mr. BEGG. I want to know whether we have profited in any way by their investigation. In 24 years we ought to be able to get some tangible records.

Mr. TEMPLE. It is said that the indeterminate sentence and the parole of prisoners and other prison reforms have come very largely out of their investigations and reports.

Mr. CARR. If I might suggest, if we did not get anything more out of it than a mere participation in it and the exchange of ideas with the representatives of the other Governments, it would be worth many times the small amount which Congress appropriates for the purpose. It is one of those things-and there are a number of them in this bill-concerning which the value is not to be estimated at all by the

amount of money which goes into them. They are worth infinitely more than we can possibly imagine, from the amount of money contributed.

Mr. BEGG. Another thing I can not understand is where you have been able to get men to serve on this commission for no salary for 24 years.

Mr. CARR. There are many men, especially scientists and students who would be very glad to serve their Government by representing it at these conferences, merely if their expenses were paid. They are not usually men of considerable fortunes, and they can not afford to do these things at their own expense. But they will be very glad to give their services to the Government if the Government will pay their traveling expenses.

Mr. SMITH of Illinois. Simply from the humanitarian standpoint?

Mr. CARR. Yes. A member of this particular commission, I happen to know, received the Indian member of this commission not long ago. There was no appropriation for that kind of expense on the part of our representative on this commission, so rather than see the Indian member turned away or thrown entirely on his own resources, in his desire to look into the prisons of the United States and find out what we were doing in that regard, the commissioner representing the United States spent his own money in taking care of the Indian commissioner. I tell you that merely to indicate to you the attitude of the men who are members of some of these commissions toward questions of that sort. That is not a question of money; it is a question of science, a question of securing better treatment of prisoners and promoting more enlightened work in that direction.

Mr. NEWTON. We have a prison reform association in the United States. I know in my own city there are men who spend their own money purely from a humanitarian standpoint to further the aims of that association.

Mr. CARR. That is generally true of certain types of men in all countries.

Mr. CONNALLY. Is it not true with reference to this particular commission, as it is with all these various international commissions, that it is not so much for the benefit of the State Department in getting a knowledge of these different countries as it is to assist the State Department in connection with our international intercourse? Mr. CARR. It benefits the State Department in its general intercourse as between the United States and other nations. And, still more, it does what Dr. Rowe so well explained the other day: It starts groups of men in this country cooperating with groups of men in other countries. When we get that going on in several different lines of work-in several different professions, if you please-in the course of 10, 15, or 20 years a marvelous work has been done which means a great deal toward a better understanding, and that better understanding means a great deal toward decreasing the difficulties which, let us say, our merchants have in their relations with other countries in carrying on commerce with other countries.

It means a great deal of difficulty removed which our Secretary of State has to encounter in bringing about better relations and in bringing about the settlement of questions with other countries. All these things have a very direct bearing upon our foreign relations,

our political relations, and a distinctly important effect upon our commercial relations with other countries. Judging the matter from the extent to which I have had to look into it, I have thought that we ought to do more of it, that we ought to give more energetic support to international commissions. I think they accomplish a commendable and an important work.

Mr. ACKERMAN. I understood you to say our representative on this commission had served for 24 years.

Mr. CARR. No; the present representative on the commission was appointed at a very recent date.

Mr. ACKERMAN. Is he appointed for a special term?

Mr. CARR. No.

Mr. ACKERMAN. For as long as he may serve?

Mr. CARR. For as long as the administration wishes him to serve.

BUREAU OF INTERPARLIAMENTARY UNION FOR PROMOTION OF INTERNATIONAL ARBITRATION.

Mr. ROGERS. There is a somewhat similar item on the next page, "Bureau of Interparliamentary Union for Promotion of International Arbitration." That was carried in the bill for some years, but was dropped last year?

Mr. CARR. Yes.

Mr. MASON. From what I have been informed, that is a very useful organization.

Mr. CARR. That was a matter in which this committee was particularly interested, and in which it has been particularly interested for a good many years. Mr. Bartholdt used to be especially interested in it.

Mr. NEWTON. Did not Mr. Moores attend an interparliamentary congress in Switzerland not long ago?

Mr. CARR. Yes; I think so. I think this bureau had its origin in the relationships which sprang up between various legislative bodies in different countries. There have been conferences held in various countries by the representatives of the principal countries of the world, and other countries have been members of those conferences.

PAN AMERICAN UNION.

Mr. NEWTON. I want to ask you a question in reference to the item on page 14 for the Pan American Union. It is provided there that there shall be credited to the appropriation of $100,000 any moneys received from the other American Republics for the support of the union. Just how much support have these Central and South American countries contributed to that fund?

Mr. CARR. They contribute an amount based upon population— their proportion according to their population. I can not tell you offhand just what that amount is.

Mr. NEWTON. Do they pay it?

Mr. CARR. Yes; of course.

Mr. ROGERS. My recollection is that we pay about 80 per cent, based on population, and the other 20 Republics pay the other 20 per cent. Mr. CARR. I think that is correct.

Mr. NEWTON. I presume that is the reason it is made up in this form.