WAREHOUSE FACILITIES OF COMMON CARRIERS.

33

have sufficient remuneration, in most cases, with which to pay the men well and pay dividends. Therefore, in this time of great need, I think the proper place to go to is the Government, to borrow this money, and I think it is the Government's duty to loan this money to the railroads to help the people of the country to perform this service.

Mr. JACOBSON. I should like the committee next to hear on that question from our worthy Senator, Mr. Johnson. He represents another side.

Mr. JOHNSON. In answering that question, Mr. Chairman, I want to say this, that there will be no trouble for the railroads to get the money. If the railroads can assure us, the common people, that there is no watered stock that is going to get any dividends, and if they can produce to us service, the service that we expect, we farmers are willing to join hands with the railroad companies and give them the necessary money.

Now, if that can not come from private owners, from the people themselves, I think it should come from the Government, but there is, so to say, a little-well, the people are a little bit afraid of it.

Senator Cashman talked about the laboring man doing a day's work. We, the farmers, are willing to do a day's work and labor is also willing to do a day's work. What we want is to have the commodities go from the producer to the consumer, not only the grain and live stock, but the clothing and everything we farmers need to have. We want it to go between us, and we want it as fast as we can get it, so that we will be in a position to meet our needs in the country.

I was not personally, myself, for this bill put across the other day, but it is there and we have to take it. I thought the Government should have the opportunity to control the railroads, so to say, for another two years at least in order to see what they could do with them after the war.

Senator POMERENE. Was not two years' experience enough?

Mr. JOHNSON. It was not enough, because things were not settled. That is the reason I thought you should have them two years more. Senator POMERENE. When it costs the Government a billion dollars for its experience, that is enough for me as a legislator. Mr. CASHMAN. And for me, too, and everybody else.

Mr. JOHNSON. We differ a little on that. Did we not have the same men running the railroads and, in many instances, the same presidents as ran them before? They were appointed by the Government because they were experienced men in that proposition.

Senator POMERENE. They cut off the heads of the men that had the experience.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, probably that might be laid to the Democratic administration.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us not get into politics in this question. Senator POMERENE. It can be laid to the underlying fault of Government ownership of great business propositions.

Mr. JOHNSON. Í asked Mr. Stone, when he made his talk in the auditorium at St. Paul, 12 different questions that I put up to him to answer, and I asked this question: Why is it that there is so much kick on the railroads now, because we are under Government con

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trol? Is the kick because there are some people higher up who are running the railroads that do not do their duty and are trying to make conditions as miserable as they possibly can, to get an excuse to go back into private ownership? He said, "You are right." I said, "That is what I thought."

Senator KELLOGG. Do you know who Mr. Stone is?

Mr. JOHNSON. I know. I am not going to talk politics now; but I want to say this, Mr. Chairman, that the common people of my part of this great country of ours are absolutely like myself. We are willing, when they can show that they can give good service, to let them have all the money they want. There is no question about that at all, and I think myself, when the chairman asks this question, that they should have the money to run them and with which to put these railroads upon a plane whereby they can give us service. It is absolutely like the street car situation in the country to-day. We have said many times to them that we are willing to come across if they give us the service.

Of course, there are a great many agitators, and there always will be, but the quickest way to down the agitators is to remove all cause for complaint. We can get them out of the way if we can say in all our dealings, "We are fair and square."

Before I sit down, let me say here, Mr. Chairman, that you know the condition in your State, and I was talking with the Secretary of Agriculture, an Iowa man, and if the people of this country, including the farmers on the one side and the consumers on the other side the laboring classes and a great many of the smaller merchants-if they are absolutely sure of it, that that unnecessary toll in speculation and otherwise is taken away, then they are willing to come across with all the money that you want. We have shown it during the war that we can do it. We can go and raise crops and do almost anything if you will assure us, Mr. Chairman, that we can have help from Washington.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not intend to bring into this discussion the question of Government ownership or operation at all. My only purpose in asking the question was this: I know that in these days that the return which we have provided for railway capital-new capital-is rather small. I think it is sufficient, but it is not a speculative return at all, and I was wondering whether now, as we go along, if the railway companies are unable to secure the money from voluntary contributions, whether the people of the country would support us in making another loan to the railroad companies at a reasonable rate of interest, because I have more concern about seeing that the people of the country have enough cars, that they are promptly moved, and moved to the markets at a fair price, than I am in anything else in connection with the transportation problem. I am not sure that the railroad companies under the bill we have provided will be able to borrow the money which they must have.

Mr. JACOBSON. I thought it would be desirable to call on different gentlemen representing all the different factions. I did not know how they stood on that matter. Now, there is a gentlemen with us in this delegation, ex-Senator O'Neill. He came to Minnesota 40 or 50 years ago. He is now a member of the State board of grain appeals and he has been in the Legislature of Minnesota probably longer than any man in our State.

Mr. O'NEILL. I desire to yield to Mr. Kenning.

Mr. KENNING. While we are on this subject, in behalf of our association, I would say that this matter has been talked pro and con amongst us. I mean not only the State association of Minnesota but the national association, comprising those 12 States, and the general conviction is that if we can not make the railroads build these elevators that the Government should build them. No matter where the money comes from, they are necessary. We happen to be on the opposite side of the fence from the gentleman who just spoke. We have all we want of governmental ownership, and for your information, Mr. Chairman, I will file with you a letter that I was requested to send to the committee before that bill was passed showing our position on it. We realize only too fully it is a wrong move to put a commodity of that kind in the hands of the Government.

Our experience at home with the system that we have adopted has taught us that. I am well aware that had the farmers of the Northwest put their money into a fund and contracted for their road work every road in their district now laid out would have been not only graded and completed but they would have had money to spare.

I speak from experience when I say that, because I am sorry to say we are wasting money every day we are allowing it to be handled by the Government. When you want a man to work for your township or municipality, manual or otherwise, you hear, “Oh, hell; it is for the Government; I will take it easy."

Senator POMERENE. I see you have been observant.

STATEMENT OF MR. D. P. O'NEILL, THIEF RIVER FALLS, MINN.

Mr. O'NEILL. I do not know that I can add anything to what has been said here to-day. My real purpose in coming to Washington as a farmer and a member of the State board of grain appeals was to ask for a moderation of our grain rates, as I did yesterday.

But I am here with this delegation to-day, and in answer to your question would say that of course there are some sore spots out in our State, in a way, not so much in regard to land grants given the railroads, because at the time they were given they were not worth much and would not have been worth a great deal if the railroads had not penetrated into that country and made them valuable; they have done as much for us as we have done for them, and I think that is generally admitted, and I admit that as a pioneer homesteader, who has hauled grain 40 miles by ox teams, rain or snow, good and bad weather.

But as to the land grants, I, as a farmer, voted for them. I took the position that Minnesota should not repudiate its obligations just simply because the railroads did not carry out their part of the agreement and did not go on to the lands they had agreed to. Of course there is some of that in the people's system now, and as to the loaning of money to the railroads now, I feel, if you will pardon me for saying it, that the Government would cease to function in the interests of the people-the railroads are now the arteries of this country, and under our complex civilization we could not exist if those arteries were not kept open any more than if the arteries of our bodies were closed--but I would say you would not properly function if they

could not get money at a reasonable rate if you do not come to their rescue. If you do not, they will have to pay a higher rate of interest as individuals than the rate at which the Government could lend it to them.

Again, I think you gentlemen would not be properly representing the Government; that the Government of this country would cease to be a Government of, for, and by the people if you permitted any organization, be it the nonpartisan league, railroad organization, or labor organization, or anyone else, to tie up the railroad system of this country. You reached out and took my sons, my nephews, and chucked them over to Europe to make the future of this country safe for liberty and freedom and not to be put down and made a monarchy of later on. If you had a right to do that, you have a perfect right to take my sons and grandsons or nephews and put them on the railroads to operate them, that the lives may not go out of the babies in the cities for want of milk, which would be the case if that situation arose and continued for 24 hours, and I say, in all seriousness, you would cease to function as a Government at Washington, as our representatives, if you would not come to the aid of those railroads in their distress to enable them to carry out properly their functions.

As a farmer in northwest Minnesota, I have seen people come from Montana who had put up hay and could not get cars to ship it, when stock was dying, two years ago when the drought was on. We could not do anything. We were told the cars were all east. Mr. Jacobson came to St. Paul and got us some relief. When we had the bad flood conditions two years ago they asked for appropriations to control the floods, and I introduced bills in the State of Minnesota and worked for them myself to help relieve that situation. and provide for a control of the overflow from the lake there. That lake is partly Indian and partly Government. They refused $100,000, but they appropriated into a fund half a million in a calamity fund, and they have given those people $100,000-made them a present of it but the conditions, so far as the floods are concerned, are just the same and those conditions will have to be met later.

Those people can not get cars to ship out their products. We had a snowstorm unparalleled, with the exception of one, in 40 years' experience, in last October. Their stock was standing out in the snow shivering and they were shrinking and shrinking for want of feed, and they could not get the cars to ship them out. You gentlemen know all about that. I hope that you gentlemen will do what you can about this. That may be an administrative function; I know that, but I know you are with us. If that is the remedy, give us those terminal elevators.

But as to the feeling of the country, we do not want the strings cut from the money. You have appropriated billions to Europe and I have seen farmers bring in grain a distance of 30 miles and carry back a part of a sack of flour, because our people were told they had to do it for the Government, and when they are told to do something by the Government they act as they are told by the Government. I have seen farmers that were hard up come into Thief River Falls with their teams and bring back a part of a sack of flour, because they could not have more than a part. I was out there myself,

at my age, with a team trying to raise grain, and I wrote them and told them I had a sack of flour and would bring it in if they wanted it, but would not waste two days when, on the 1st of May, I would have to go back and get it again. I did not think that was good business, but I want to show you gentlemen how conscientious those people are and how they feel about those things. I want you to know that. They bought bonds and borrowed the money with which to buy them. They did everything in their power to carry on the war, and yet they feel there has been money given by billions, and there is some talk of making a present of this money to other countries for business purposes. It might be good business to do it. I am not saying it is not, but if you are lending them the money we do not want the strings to it cut.

The CHAIRMAN. A very patriotic speech.

Mr. JACOBSON. In behalf of the Northwest and the delegation we have with us, we want to thank you very much for permitting us to appear before your committee at this very busy time, and I know you will consider this bill in the way it should be considered, and we hope in some way to get relief.

The CHAIRMAN. We are very glad to have heard you, and every member of the committee is deeply interested in reaching a solution of this transportation problem.

(Whereupon the hearing was adjourned.)