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Statement of—

Altvater, William C., vice president, Pittsburgh & Shawmut Coal
Co., Kittanning, Pa...

Barton, Hon. Frank L., Deputy Under Secretary for Transportation,
Department of Commerce..

Baylis, Arthur E., vice president-marketing, accompanied by Harry
Klester, manager of fuel market analysis, and John A. Daily, assist-
ant general solicitor, the New York Central Railroad, 466 Lexington
Avenue, New York, N.Y..

Burks, Martin P., general counsel, accompanied by William L.
Bailes, Jr., coal traffic department, Norfolk & Western Railway Co.,
Roanoke, Va..

Chandler, Hon. Albert B., Versailles, Ky..

Clarke, Hon. Owen, vice president, Chesapeake & Ohio Railway Co.,
3500 Terminal Tower, Cleveland, Ohio-

Elfred, F. Stillman, chairman of the board, Peabody Coal Co., 301
Olive Street, St. Louis, Mo..

Gill, R. C., Trunk Line Railroads, 1 Park Avenue, New York, N.Y..
Greenough, Allen J., president, accompanied by E. A. Kaier, Esq.,
general solicitor, the Pennsylvania Railroad Co., Philadelphia, Pa.-
Grotz, W. Arthur, president, Western Maryland Railway Co., 300 St.
Paul Place, Baltimore, Md...

Hogg, William B., Williamson, W. Va_

Jamison, R. H., Jr., president, Delmont Fuel Co., Hunkers, Pa...
Kaelin, Andrew J., international vice president, Transport Workers
Union, AFL-CIÓ, 210 West 50th Street, New York, N.Y.............
Kennedy, Thomas, president, United Mine Workers of America, 1435

K Street NW., Washington, D.C...

Leighty, G. E., chairman, accompanied by E. L. Hickey, general
counsel, Railway Labor Executives Association, Railway Labor
Building, Washington, D.C...

Loomis, Daniel L., president, Association of American Railroads,
Transportation Building, Washington, D.C..

Love, George H., chairman of the board, Consolidation Coal Co.,
Koppers Building, Pittsburgh, Pa....

Lynn, A. L., vice president, Island Creek Coal Co., Post Office Box
2187, Huntington, W. Va...

Machamer, Clyde L., president, accompanied by James W. Thomp-
son, secretary, Independent Miners & Associates, 406-407 Masonic
Building, Pottsville, Pa.; and Clarence Kashner, president, Anthra-
cite Independent Miners, Breakermen & Truckers Association,
610 Walnut Street, Shamokin, Pa..
Moss, Hon. Frank E., U.S. Senate___.
Murphy, Hon. Rupert L., Chairman, accompanied by Abe McGregor
Goff, Commissioner; James A. Murray, Deputy General Counsel;
Hiram H. Spicer, Legislative Counsel; Dale W. Hardin, Liaison
Officer; and Edward Margolin, Director, Bureau of Transport Eco-
nomics and Statistics, Interstate Commerce Commission..
Ratliff, Thomas B., Ratliff-Elkhorn Coal Co., Pikeville, Ky.
Schoene, Robert E., vice president, Simpson Creek Coal Sales Corp.,

120 Wall Street, New York, N.Y.

Singman, Julian, 1832 Jefferson Place NW., Washington, D.C...
Udall, Hon. Stewart L., Secretary of the Interior, accompanied by
John M. Kelly, Assistant Secretary, Department of the Interior__
Weisberger, Seymour, vice president and general manager, Elliot Coal

Mining Co., Inc., Osceola Mills, Pa....
Whitsett, W. G., traffic vice president, Louisville & Nashville Rail-
road, Louisville, Ky..

























Statements submitted:

McCormac, Leland D., vice president-purchasing, Niagara Mohawk
Power Corp., Syracuse, N.Y

Walker, Ray S., secretary, Central Pennsylvania Open Pit Mining
Association, Post Office Box 330, Philipsburg, Pa...
Letters and resolutions received:

Barron, Hon. William Wallace, Governor of West Virginia, Charleston,
W. Va., to Senator Warren G. Magnuson, May 1, 1962-
Biemiller, Andrew J., director, Department of Legislation, AFL-CIO,
815 16th Street, NW., Washington, D.C., to Senator Warren G.
Magnuson, May 8, 1962.

Chapman, Hon. Oscar L., attorney for Texas Eastern Transmission
Corp., Chapman & Friedman, Pennsylvania Building, Washington,
D.C., to Senator Warren G. Magnuson, May 18, 1962-
Evans, John K., executive director, Independent Fuel Oil Marketers
of America, Inc., 1520 K Street NW., Washington, D.C., to Senator
Warren G. Magnuson, May 21, 1962-

Kennedy, Hon John F., the President of the United States, dated
March 20, 1962, to the President of the Senate, transmitting draft

Loomis, Daniel L., president, Association of American Railroads,
Transportation Building, Washington, D.C., to Senator Warren G.
Magnuson, June 5, 1962__

McCann, W. J., recording secretary, Lodge No. 962, Brotherhood
Railway Carmen of America, Port Jervis, N.Y., to Hon. Katherine
St. George, May 10, 1962...

Sloan, E. W., president, Oglebay Norton Co., the Hanna Building,
Cleveland, Ohio, to Senator Frank J. Lausche, April 17, 1962 ___.
Reports received:

Comptroller General of the United States, April 13, 1962-
Department of Commerce, April 19, 1962__
Department of Justice, May 7, 1962.

Department of the Interior, April 17 and May 21, 1962-
Department of the Navy, June 14, 1962.
Federal Power Commission, April 17, 1962.
General Services Administration, May 22, 1962-
Interstate Commerce Commission, April 16, 1962.
Office of Emergency Planning, May 17, 1962..














31 and 231









Washington, D.C.

The committee was called to order, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 a.m., in room 5110, New Senate Office Building, Hon. Ralph Yarborough presiding.

Senator YARBOROUGH. The Commerce Committee will come to order. The hearing this morning is on S. 3044, a bill introduced by Senator Magnuson at the request of the President, which would authorize a carrier of coal by pipeline to acquire necessary land by the right of eminent domain, if it could not do so otherwise. Such a carrier's operations must have been found by the Secretary of the Interior to be required by the public convenience and necessity. Existing law grants similar authority to natural gas pipeline companies.

The plan of transporting coal by pipeline, I am sure, will seem to many people to be a new and novel idea. Actually, a patent application for such transportation was filed around 1882, and a working model was exhibited in 1893 at the Columbian World Fair in Chicago.

In 1915 a line was actually built, and was operated for some years in England. It moved coal 1,760 feet from a wharf to a spot near the boilers. The proportion of coal to water was about 50-50, and the slurry moved at the rate of 4 feet per second.

There is a hundred-mile line now operating in Ohio, and a member of this committee, Senator Lausche, when he was Governor, signed the Ohio law that granted the right of eminent domain to coal pipelines.

The distinguished Senator from Ohio is here, the former Governor. I believe that is correct, isn't it, Senator Lausche?

Senator LAUSCHE. Yes.

Senator YARBOROUGH. The Ohio line moves the slurry about 3.5 miles per hour, almost as fast as oil. It is a successful operation.

Without objection, at this point in the record we will insert the bill, and a copy of the President's letter supporting it.

Staff member: Harold Baynton.

(The above-described material is as follows:)

[S. 3044, 87th Cong., 2d sess.]

A BILL To amend the Interstate Commerce Act to grant to any carrier of coal by pipeline, subject to any of the provisions of part 1 of the Act, the right of eminent domain, and for other purposes

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That part 1 of the Interstate Commerce Act, as amended, is hereby amended by adding at the end thereof section 27, as follows:

"SEC. 27. (a) The term 'carrier' as used in this section means any carrier of coal by pipeline that is subject to any of the provisions of this part, the operations of which have been found by the Secretary of the Interior to be required by the public convenience and necessity.

"(b) When any such carrier cannot acquire by contract or is unable to agree with the owner of property as to the compensation to be paid for the necessary right-of-way to construct, operate, and maintain any existing or proposed pipeline or pipelines and the necessary land or other property, in addition to right-of-way, for the location of pumping stations, pressure apparatus, tanks, or other stations, equipment, or appurtenances necessary to the proper operation of such pipeline or pipelines, it may acquire the same by the exercise of the right of eminent domain in the district court of the United States for the district in which such property may be located, or in the State courts. The practice and procedure in any action or proceeding for that purpose in the district court of the United States shall conform to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure: Provided, That the United States district court shall only have jurisdiction of cases when the amount claimed by the owner of the property to be condemned exceeds $10,000."


THE WHITE HOUSE, March 20, 1962. DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I am transmitting for the consideration of the Congress a draft bill to facilitate the construction of pipelines to transport coal slurry in interstate commerce. The proposed legislation grants the right of eminent domain to the builders of any carrier of coal by pipeline which is subject to any of the provisions of part I of the Interstate Commerce Act and which the Secretary of the Interior has found to be required by public convenience and necessity.

The coal resources of our Nation constitute one of our greatest assets. They launched our industrial development and they provide a great reservoir of energy. They can be a stimulus to our economic growth.

In recent years, however, many of our coal mine communities have suffered from reduced operations flowing from the decline in coal consumption. This new method of transportation offers possibilities for renewed vigor and hope for increased economic strength for the coal industry. If costs can be lowered in this fashion, all segments of the economy will benefit.

I understand that plans have already been made for a pipeline that will carry coal from the West Virginia coal fields to the eastern seaboard. However, unless a right-of-way can be obtained, these plans will be postponed and may ultimately have to be discontinued. The legislation will permit the prompt implementation of those plans.

Pipeline transportation of coal may also play an important role in the economics of areas other than West Virginia. It is being studied in the Rocky Mountain region for use in west coast markets. Already coal is being transported by a 100-mile long pipeline in Ohio. The technical problems are being overcome; the economics of operation are known; private enterprise stands ready to invest the necessary capital. The power to acquire the right-of-way is needed. This legislation will grant to the carrier of coal by pipeline the same privilege of eminent domain that the carrier of natural gas already has.

I urge that favorable and prompt consideration be given to this legislation. Sincerely,


Senator YARBOROUGH. Also for the record, a report from the Comptroller General, who, while he finds no objection to the bill, suggests, along with some technical changes, the determination whether public convenience and necessity exists be by the ICC rather than the Secretary of the Interior.

Washington, April 13, 1962.

Chairman, Committee on Commerce,

U.S. Senate.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: We again refer to your letter of March 23, 1962, in which you asked for our comments on S. 3044.

This bill, which you introduced at the request of the President of the United States, proposes to add to part I of the Interstate Commerce Act paragraphs (a) and (b) of section 27 granting the right of eminent domain to carriers of coal in interstate commerce by pipeline. We note that similar specific rights are possessed by pipeline carriers of natural and artificial gas under the Natural Gas Act, 15 U.S.C. 717f (h), and by licensees under the Federal Power Act, 16 U.S.C. 814. This proposal, if enacted would not affect the functions and operations of our Office and we have no objections to its favorable consideration by your committee. However unless the proposed paragraphs contained in S. 3044 are redesignated it may be appropriate to change the numbers of the present section 27 the short-title provision to section 28. Also it would seem desirable to reserve the authority to determine whether public convenience and necessity exist to the Interstate Commerce Commission rather than the Secretary of the Interior in order to associate such authority with that which the Commission already possesses concerning other carriers of coal and to maintain uniformity in regulatory procedures.

Sincerely yours,

/s/ JOSEPH CAMPBELL, Comptroller General of the United States.

The Secretary of the Interior had planned to be the first witness, but other engagements have detained him, so I believe we will hear first from the Interstate Commerce Commission.

Senator Magnuson planned to open these hearings, but he is at the White House with the President. The chairman of the full committee will arrive later this morning. We will proceed with the witnesses until he arrives.

The first witness will be Mr. Rupert L. Murphy, Chairman of the Interstate Commerce Commission.

Mr. Murphy, I think this is quite a unique measure for the ICC to be the lead-off witness on, and I am reminded that this year is the 75th or diamond anniversary of the creation of the ICC and that it was created by a bill sponsored by one of my predecessors from Texas, Senator John H. Ray. I doubt that he, even with his vision or foresight, thought at that time of this type of operation, though, as has been pointed out earlier, the patent had been applied for and an actual working model set up in Chicago in 1893 for such a pipeline.

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