A. Yes, sir. When a student, for instance, worked upon the farm, he had a regularly graded course, and he was not required to do the same thing twice after he knew how to do it. If he plowed to-day, he probably would not plow to-morrow. Whilst he was engaged in plowing, a college laborer walked alongside of him during the entire time, and the professor in charge gave him such a portion of his time as was not occupied by attention to students employed elsewhere on the farm at other work. That has not been in operation this last fall. I do not know what the intention is for the coming summer.

Q. The only expense that the student incurs in attending that college is boarding and clothing?

A. No, sir; he pays forty dollars a year to the college.

Q. For tuition?

A. If he lives in the college he pays forty dollars for room rent, fuel, and furniture, and incidentals, the use of the public rooms and the heating of the public rooms, halls, &c., and paying of the janitors. If he rooms out of the building he pays simply fourteen dollars a year incidentals, for those things that students enjoy in common, the use of the public rooms and heating and lighting of the building.

By Mr. Alexander:

Q. No charge for tuition?

A. No charge for tuition. In case students are appointed from senatorial districts, no charge whatever is made.

Adjourned to meet at 7.30 o'clock, P. M.

Met at 7.30 o'clock, P. M.

The sub-committee proceeded to examine the orders of the president of the institution, the receipts held by the treasurer for the payment of the same, and the books of accounts of the State College, in order to verify or discover errors in the statement of accounts as already presented and testified to by John Hamilton, treasurer.

Adjourned to meet at 8 o'clock, A. M., Wednesday, March 22, 1882.

Met at 9 o'clock, A. M., Wednesday, March 22, 1882, all members of the subcommittee being present. Senator Mylin, chairman, in the chair. Minutes of the last meeting read.

Professor John Hamilton recalled, and examined by Mr. Bierly, a member of the general committee.

Q. Give the names and post-office addresses of the students of the present college year, and the occupations of their parents?

A. The number of students now in attendance is eighty. I take it the question has reference to the year from the first of January. The number of students that are now in attendance is eighty. The post-office address I cannot give you, neither can I give the occupations of their parents.

Q. The number of graduates and number now engaged in agricultural and mechanical arts?

A. The whole number of graduates as shown by the catalogue since the beginning is one hundred and nine, and the number engaged in agricultural or mechanic arts I have put down at forty-five. There is a question, however, as to whether certain of those that I have included in these fortyfive should be so included, and with permission of the committee I will read the occupation of those graduates that I have included in this num

ber forty-five. (Witness reads from catalogue.) If the question had been framed, "industrial arts," my answer would have been more accurate.

Q. The total charge made against students for incidentals, &c., &c., since the establishment of the school?

A. It would require a good deal of work to answer that question accurately. I would have to go over the account of every student that has ever been in the institution, and the same student for the different years that he has been in the institution, and I would have to deduct from each student's account the drawbacks that he might have received from the college, if he had left at any time, on account of sickness, or was called home, or had been expelled. It would be next to impossible to answer the question. In the early years of the college the charge was $100 a year for everything; that included boarding, light, fuel, furniture, room rent, washing, and books. In subsequent years that was made $200 a year, and that included board, room rent, fuel, furniture, and, I believe, washing. Since that time the charges have varied in different years, and I cannot now, from memory, give the variations that have taken place up to the present time; but at one time we boarded the students, and now we do not, and consequently the income from students now, the total income from students now, is much less per year than it was when we ran a boarding department, and required them to pay for their boarding. The charges at present are forty dollars a year, the students rooming in the building, and fourteen dollars a year for the students who room out of the building.

By Mr. Newmyer:

Q. What was that for; on account of expenses?

A. Incidentals, room rent, fuel, furniture, that is all.

Q. At the time you boarded the students, was the boarding-house run at a profit, or did you run it so as to come out even?

A. It was run at a loss.

By Mr. Alexander :

Q. I would like to inquire for how long had that experiment continuedboarding the students at $100 per year-do you know?

A. Up to the close of 1865. They had run in debt for that educational expense about $24,000, and in 1866 they run in debt about $5,000.

By Mr. Mylin :

Q. For educational expenses you include board?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was the change made then the following year, 1867?

A. There was a change made in the price of admission in 1867, I believe. By Mr. Bierly:

Q. Give the attendance of students each year.

A. That can be given. I have it not at command now. For 1881 it was, I believe, one hundred and sixty-four.

Q. Give the average age of students each year.

A. I have no means of ascertaining that for any considerable number of years. A record of the age of the students was not kept in the early history of the institution, or if it was, it is not to be found, to my knowledge. Q. Give the price of boarding at the college, what opportunities is or was afforded the students for boarding themselves, and what is the system? A. The price in boarding-houses in the village is $3 per week. The price in the college clubs varies from $10 to $2 25 per week. Students are permitted to board in such boarding-houses near the college as are approved by the faculty, and there is a boarding club established that has, I believe, about forty members, that is conducted in the college building by the students themselves.

Q. How many of the present officers have had practical experience as farmers or in mechanical arts?

A. I cannot give the history of each one. Some of them have had experience in both of these branches of industry, but the number I cannot now give, and I would have to get it from the professors themselves. By Mr. Alexander:

Q. What has been the occupation of Professor Jordan?

A. He farmed.

Q. He is now professor of agriculture?

A. Yes, sir. Professor McKee was raised upon a farm. Heston was raised upon a farm. Smith was he was a manufacturer of agricultural fertilizers, and was engaged in conducting large machine shops in the city of Reading, and was a lumber dealer in the west for a number of years, and owned a lumber yard of his own in the city of Pittsburgh for a number of years. Professor Jackson, I believe, had charge of mechanical shops in the city of Harrisburg for several years, and is now, I believe, interested in mechanical shops in Chester county, and I believe was raised upon a farm. Professor Buckhout carried on farming for seɣeral years before he was appointed professor of botany and horticulture, up near the city of Oswego, in New York. Professor Barnard is a graduate of the United States naval academy, at Annapolis, and is a civil engineer. Has been employed by the United States Government. Reber was a farmer. Miss Annie Cooper was not a farmer, I believe. That is about as far as I can go. I was raised upon a farm. Farming is my business. I now own a farm, and run it myself.

Q. Why, with the facilities for boarding the students at the college, was the plan of boarding them abandoned, and when?

A. It was abandoned because it was unprofitable, and an actual loss to the college. It was abandoned in 1874.

Q. How many of the present students are boarders, and how many day scholars, or home boarders?

A. I believe there are sixty who board at the college, and twenty who board at home.

By Mr. Mylin:

Q. Twenty of day scholars?

A. Yes, sir, who board at home. That includes the children of professors, and those of other employés of the college.

By Mr. Bierly:

Q. What efforts, if any, have been made by the managers of the institution to gain the good will and confidence of the agricultural and industrial classes of Pennsylvania, and by whom?

A. If the question had been framed and what efforts had been spared and not been made," it would have been more easily answered. The individual trustees have given their time and money and attention to this college, and to disseminating the knowledge of its advantages to the people of Pennsylvania, as faithfully as any set of trustees of any college in the country have to their college. So far as the faculty of the college is concerned they have tried, I believe, zealously to do their duty to the pupils who are there, and to the citizens of the State. And, so far as I know, there has been no antagonism on the part of the college towards any of the citizens of the State; but there has been a constant desire to consult public opinion by presenting the advantages such as is contemplated in the act of Congress and the acts of the Legislature establishing the college.

By Mr. Roberts:

Q. What special means have been used to induce the owners of farms, and others engaged in industrial pursuits, to attend this school?

A. The authorities of the college, in the first place, endeavored to make a cheap school, so that those of very limited means could attend, and therefore they fixed the original rate at one hundred dollars per year for all expenses. They found they could not live at that rate. They supposed that the students, working upon the farm, could largely sustain themselves, but they discovered after a while that it was possible to have too much labor upon a piece of land, and that there was a limit to the productiveness of land, and that it was impossible to even board a large number of pupils, much less make any profit out of their labor upon a limited area of land. After they had sunk $24,000 or more in that experiment they increased the rate to two hundred dollars, and although they limited their expenses as much as possible, they lost in one year about $5,000. They have endeavored all the way through to present in their agricultural course such studies as they thought would be of benefit to the farming community. They have established experimental farms in connection with the college; they have introduced a system of practicums on the college farm in the interest of agriculture; they have established laboratories for chemical analyses and botanical analyses, and anatomical museums in the interest of farmers; they have prepared reports and distributed them throughout the State of Pennsylvania, giving the operations of these farms and of the college for many years. They have sent out their president over the State to lecture to farmers; they have invited farmers by thousands of circulars to send their sons to the college, and have shown in the circulars the advantages of the institution; have given special courses of lectures for farmers; I do not know what they have not done, or what they have left undone that they might have done, as I look back over all the years, considering the light they had at the time upon which to have acted.

Q. How do you account for the fact that the general attendance has been at so low a point with all these inducements offered ?

A. I suppose one reason is the fact that the college has not been as accessible to the people as some other institutions, and consequently that the people are not informed, personally as to the advantages that it possesses. The college is open to inspection. It is willing to stand criticism upon the part of intelligent men who will go there and examine its courses of instruction and go through its laboratories, and attend the college and see the work that is done. But if people take hearsay instead of facts they are likely to get the story considerably mixed. Our students, I believe, as a rule, are all friendly and favorable to the college. I do not include some that have been dismissed for various reasons, but as a rule our students are well disposed towards the college and wish to do it a good turn. I believe, therefore, in short, that it is because the people are not informed as to the advantages that the college presents-informed in such a way as to convince them that it really does give the thing that it professes to give.

Q. Have you any plan to suggest to give that information?

A. A railroad past the college is, in my opinion, the best advertisement that we could have. When that day comes, and when the college is enabled to present still greater advantages than it has, I believe it will be full of students. I believe, sir, that the principles upon which it is founded are right, and that they are bound in the end to commend themselves to the industrial classes of Pennsylvania.

Q. You think that, if it had been differently situated, the industrial community could have ascertained, by coming in contact with the school, its advantages?

A. Yes, sir; they might have had that knowledge that they ought to

have had; but, being remote from a railroad, the public was misled by a sentiment that, however true it may have been in the early days of the institution, is now wholly mistaken.

Q. The railroad is completed within five miles of the college?

A. The eastern portion of the road is now in running operation to Spring Mills, which is about fifteen miles east of us. It is graded to a village called Lemont, which is about three miles east of us. Upon that portion the ties have not been laid, nor the rails. In the west end the road is in running order within six miles of us. There is an interval, however, of

about nine or ten miles.

Q. That will probably be completed in the course of a year or two? A. We hope it will be completed. We have no means of getting any absolute knowledge. There is also a line that has been recently surveyed from Bellefonte that comes within half a mile of the college and intersects with the Lewisburg, Centre and Tyrone railroad, within half a mile of the college, west. That railroad is expected to be completed sometime soon. When this Lewisburg, Centre and Tyrone railroad is completed it will run not further than half or three quarters of a mile from the college, possibly just in front of the college grounds. This will give access east and west; to the Pennsylvania railroad west, and to the Northern Central east. By Mr. Bierly:

Q. If there are thirty-tive pupils in the preparatory department, with a principal and assistant, why does the principal call for another assistant, as he does in the report for 1880?

A. If you examine this circular of the college (indicating) that has been recently issued, you will see on page 5 the preparatory course for 1881 and 1882; you will see that there is a course in general science and a course in classics in the preparatory department, and that these two courses each run through two years of study, and that in each year, or in each session of each year, there are a number of studies. Take, for instance, the fall session of the year, general science course, arithmetic, algebra, physiology, English analysis, making four studies in all. In the same session, the preparatory classical course, there are arithmetic, algebra, Latin grammar and reader, making five. Three of these, however, are the same as in the general science course, so that really there are six different studies. In order to carry these classes it will require six hours of recitation, and all the recitations are heard in the forenoon of the day. In addition to these there are the practicums of the afternoon. There are also students in their second year, preparatory course, who are to be heard in the same time. In the second year there would be in the general science course, fall session, algebra, English history, natural philosophy, and German. For the same session of the classical course, second year, algebra, English history, Cæsar and Latin composition, Greek grammar and reader. Now, there you have six more, making twelve studies, that must be heard in one forenoon. There are four hours of recitation in the morning. Two teachers could hear eight recitations, and it would take another to hear the other four. The afternoon is taken up by practicums.

By Mr. Mylin:

Q. The recitations are how long-an hour?

A. An hour; therefore the necessity of three teachers in the preparatory department. If, as is frequently the case, some students are a little weak or some a little low in their term studies, there is necessity for having a special class in some one or the other of these courses to bring up these students, so that they may, at the end of the term, pass their examination, and go forward into the next class. They require special instruc