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Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. I do not know the amount of the various appropriations, nor the number printed each time. I do know that there has been a tremendous demand for the books. This item of $200,000 has been inserted in the bill by the House to provide for another reprint of the books. You will recall that along about last May there was a resolution introduced providing for a reprint. At that time we authorized the Bureau of Animal Industry to make all corrections that were needed-corrections of text and plates and everything else—so that it would be ready to submit to the Public Printer if Congress passed the resolution authorizing its reprint. The resolution did not pass

Senator LENROOT. What is the present supply on hand?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. So far as Congress is concerned, or so far as the department is concerned, there are no books on hand. The Superintendent of Documents has some books on hand for sale. Senator MCNARY. What number, Mr. Pugsley, could you distribute under this appropriation?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. I understand that the Public Printer estimated, over the telephone, that it would cost about 50 cents to print each book, according to Mr. Cobbs, chief of the Division of Publications. The $200,000, therefore, would print about 400,000 books-200,000 copies of each book.

Senator MCNARY. Are these books brought down to the present time?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. Yes, sir. The revision was made up to last May.

Senator MCNARY. Up to May of 1922?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. Yes.

Senator MCNARY. And under this appropriation you would have for circulation by Congress 400,000 copies, or would that include all that were published?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. There would be no chance to publish any others except as the Public Printer would order them for sale. This item, as I understand it, would provide $200,000 worth of books for distribution by Members of Congress.

Senator LENROOT. And how many volumes will that make

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. Approximately 400,000 if, according to the statement of the Public Printer, they cost 50 cents each. I understand that the last reprint is selling for a dollar now. It would seem that the cost of printing has gone down tremendously. Senator LENROOT. It has gone down?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. It seems to me that 50 cents is a very low estimate for the cost of printing the book, even with the use of many old plates. There are some 600 pages in each book.

Senator MCNARY. This matter was not brought to the attention of the House committee, was it?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. No, sir. It was an amendment introduced from the floor. This is not in the Budget recommendation of the department, you understand, Senator.

Senator MCNARY. How did it appear on the floor of the House?
Mr. JUMP. Some Member proposed it.

Senator MCNARY. It has not been considered by the Bureau of the Budget? It was not presented to the committee or reported by the committee?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. No, sir. It was not in the Secretary's recommendation to the Budget or in the Budget's recommendations to Congress. There has been a tremendous demand for the book, however, both from the department and from Congressmen.

Mr. JUMP. I am not sure, Senator, that the Bureau of the Budget has any jurisdiction over it, because it seems to be a legislative item. I am not even sure of that. That is just my curbstone opinion. Are there any further questions on that point?

Senator MCNARY. Does the committee desire to ask further questions on this item? If not, we will take up the next one.

COOPERATIVE AGRICULTURAL EXTENSION WORK.

Mr. JUMP. Following the procedure the Senator requested, the next case in which the House committee raised the appropriation above the recommendation of the Bureau of the Budget is found on page 10, beginning with line 11-the appropriation for agricultural extension work, where the cut of $50,000 under this year's appropriation made by the Budget Bureau was restored by the House committee. The estimate called for $1,250,000, and the House committee restored it to $1,300,000, the same amount as available for this year. The Assistant Secretary will also answer any inquiries you desire to make about that, as he has direct charge of the extension activities.

Senator MCNARY. What is the whole amount carried for extension work for 1924?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. $7,164,350, including the SmithLever, which reached its maximum this year.

Senator MCNARY. That was a million and a half, was it not? Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. It now amounts to $4,580,000 each

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. The supplementary Smith-Lever work was a million and a half year before last, and last year it was reduced for the present fiscal year to $1,300,000, you will recall. The Budget Bureau recommended $1,250,000 this year and the House Appropriations Committee raised that to the same as it was last year-$1,300,000.

Senator LENROOT. Does that $50,000 cover any specific amount? In other words, why was the Budget recommendation reduced $50,000? Was there any specific reason for it?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. Not that I know of; no, sir. They were looking for places to cut, and here was a place where they did, I think. At least, they presented no specific reason for cutting.

Mr. JUMP. I know of no specific reason. Where there was a big appropriation, it was easier to cut than it was to wipe out some small item.

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. A little statement as to how this is used might be of interest to you.

Senator MCNARY. This particular item?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. Yes, sir.
Senator McNARY. Very well.

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. This is used exactly as the SmithLever money is used. It is appropriated to the States for hiring county agents, demonstration agents, and boys' and girls' club agents, and is offset by State and county moneys appropriated for that

purpose.

Senator MCNARY. Then this item is supplementary of the original Smith-Lever bill?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. Yes, sir.

Senator MCNARY. To be expended in cooperation with the States?
Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. Yes, sir.

Senator HARRIS. Doctor Pugsley, do you contemplate making any changes in regard to the method of handling this work now? Some one told me in Georgia, for instance, that you were going to make some change about the way the colleges will detail their men; that you would require a man for certain special work in each county that is not now provided. Is anything like that in contemplation?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. There is absolutely nothing to that

at all.

Senator HARRIS. Had you heard anything from that before?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. We hear all sorts of rumors, which are probably started because we have made a reorganization within the department of our administration of all extension work.

Senator HARRIS. You have no idea of changing the way in which the States handle it through the State colleges?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. No, sir; that is left entirely to the States. So long as a State uses this cooperative money for the purposes enumerated in the law, we do not designate the type of organization that they shall have in the State.

Senator HARRIS. The reason why I asked that question is this: For instance, some of our counties are too poor to have more than one person do this work, and if you required an extra person to supervise one or two it would mean that additional expense.

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. We do not require that at all.
Senator HARRIS. I am glad to hear that.

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. We make no uniform plan for the utilization of this money within the States. A county may have one or several agents, if the State college of agriculture recommends that this is the best way to spend the money, and if the county people are ready for it. The truth of the matter is, that there are a large number of men agents dealing with production problems, a smaller number of women agents who are working with home problems, and a still smaller number of agents who are working with boys' and girls' club problems. That probably will always be the case. We are suggesting to the States that where they have only a county agent in a county he should be an extension agent working with all the problems that affect agriculture; in other words, he should have a united and balanced agricultural program for the community, and bring in somebody occasionally to help in those problems in which he is not qualified to help.

Senator HARRIS. But you do not force the colleges or the counties to change their present system?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. No, sir,

Senator HARRIS. You are doing great work down there, and I am very much interested in it.

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. We have made the statement over and over again to the colleges of agriculture and the extension directors that the plan of administration within the State is to be determined by the State itself. We will insist, however, that the money be spent for the things that you people appropriate it for, and that results be secured.

Senator HARRIS. You ought to.

FURTHER STATEMENT OF W. A. JUMP, BUDGET OFFICER AND ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICUL

TURE.

Senator MCNARY. Now, Mr. Jump, you may proceed.

Mr. JUMP. Mr. Chairman, do you desire us to continue to explain to the committee in every case, as indicated a while ago, the items increased by the House?

Senator MCNARY. Perhaps not in the absence of the two Senators who have gone to the meeting of the Committee on Commerce, particularly with regard to the Market News item, as to which I want to await the return of Senator Jones.

Mr. JUMP. We will not come to that for some time, anyway.
Senator MCNARY. Very well.

AGRICULTURAL EXHIBITS.

Mr. JUMP. The next change is on page 11, where the House increased the exhibits items from $85.080, as contemplated by the Budget, to $95,080, an increase of $10,000, and also put in the proviso that $25,000 of the appropriation should be immediately available for an exhibit at the National Dairy Exposition. That is in lines 11 and 12.

Senator MCNARY. Where is the dairy congress to be held?

Mr. JUMP. The World's Dairy Congress is the second amendment, Senator; but there is also a change in the item with regard to the National Dairy Exposition. There are two things here.

Senator HARRIS. Where is that held?

Mr. JUMP. It has not yet been determined where the World's Dairy Congress will be held. It will be held, probably, in the same city as the National Dairy Exposition, which is an annual affair; but that has not yet been determined.

Senator MCNARY. Then, as I understand you, the National Dairy Exposition is held annually, but this Congress is an entirely new association or organization or exhibit?

Mr. JUMP. The World's Dairy Congress is not a new organization, but I think it is being held in this country for the first time-at least, the first time for a number of years. It has been held in foreign countries heretofore. You see, the National Dairy Exposition, an annual affair, always referred to in the dairy industry as the dairy show, will be held in the same city, in order that the foreign delegates and American delegates may have a chance to see the dairy show at the same time, the prize cattle, and the dairy machinery, etc., which is centered there; and desiring, I believe, to have the department make a particularly good exhibit, in order that this country

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might appear to the proper advantage and the American dairy industry be done full justice, the House committee increased by $10,000 the amount of the exhibit appropriation, and provided that $25,000 should be immediately available to get up the exhibit for the dairy exposition.

Senator MCNARY. Let me ask you a question right there, Mr. Jump. The amount appropriated in the 1923 bill was $70,000. This bill carries $95,080, which is an increase of $25,080?

Mr. JUMP. That is an apparent increase only, Senator. Aside from the $10,000 added by the House there is no real increase.

Senator MCNARY. Is that the $25,000 that is covered in the proviso? Mr. JUMP. No, sir; it is this way: The amount for exhibits last year was $70,000, but there was approximately $15,080 carried in another fund called the fund for extra labor and emergency employment under the Division of Publications. That was put in there some years ago by the House Committee on Agriculture, when they used it to consider the agricultural bill, for employment in connection with the exhibit work, so that the amount really available for exhibit work has been $85,080. This year, in bringing the Office of Exhibits into the Extension Service, we have simply lumped these two funds together so as to get all the exhibit money in one place, and this is the $85,080 which was included in the Budget. It involved no increase but made no special provision for the dairy show.

Senator HARRIS. How much did you spend this past year? Mr. JUMP. We practically spent the full amount. That appropriation is crowded to the limit, and the demands on the department are such that we are constantly having to turn down fairs, etc. Senator HARRIS. I am very much in favor of it.

Mr. Jump. It is a splendid piece of work and giving the best of results.

Senator MCNARY. What was the $10,000 increase made by the House to be spent for?

Mr. JUMP. We always have an exhibit at the dairy show, and we have been spending around $10,000 a year for that out of the lump appropriation for exhibits but recently there has been no specific appropriation for it. The House committee added $10,000 to the $85,080 and that brought the total up to $95,080. Then they said. in effect, “But $25,000, or such part of it as may be necessary, shall be available for the National Dairy Exposition," in order to make sure that the dairy industry is properly presented by this Government at the show in connection with the World's Dairy Congress. Senator MCNARY. Then the provision of $30,000 adopted in the. House is to be added to the $95,080?

Mr. JUMP. No, sir; it is not contemplated to add it. That is an entirely new amendment put in from the floor and is not connected with the exhibits item at all.

Senator MCNARY. I know; but in order to get at the total amount of those items you would add the $30,000 to the $95,080, would you not?

Assistant Secretary PUGSLEY. That is not for exhibit work, you will notice, Senator.

Senator MCNARY. No; but I am talking about the pure question of the appropriation of the money.

Mr. JUMP. Oh, yes; it adds $30,000 more.