have 85 to 90 per cent ore, had to take the 80 per cent ore. The result has been that the finished product is not nearly as good as formerly.

Now, it is an important proposition, I should say for the Government, as well as anyone else, because, as I understand it, these batteries are used in ambulances, and are used largely for flashlight batteries for Red Cross work, and it seems to me that some provision ought to be made to allow, anyway, a certain quantity of high-grade ore to come into the United States, because the production is not here; we have never been able to produce it. For instance, I have handled practically the entire output of the Crimora mine, which is one of the biggest producers. Last year I think we had something like five carloads of high-grade ore. "That is a pretty small production. That grade would run about 84 to 87 per cent MnO2, not metallic-I do not figure on metallic when I am speaking of highgrade ore. I do not handle the lower grade ores at all, those that run low in iron and low in copper, because if there is too much copper in it it short circuits in the battery trade, it would short circuit the battery.

Dr. MANNING. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that Mr. Lamson make clear the difference between chemical ore and metallurigcal ore.

Mr. LAMSON. I should say that metallurgical ore would be used for spiegeleisen and ferromanganese. Ferromanganese would be used in paints and varnishes and dry batteries, and high-class trade of that kind, and in making up some metals, and in also making up potassium permanganate, which they have asked me to come down and tell about, of getting the copper out of that product at the present time. But there are a number of manufacturers who are just starting to make it, and it is almost impossible to tell what the consumption of manganese will be for that purpose. I know two or three new concerns that have just started to make potassium permanganate. It is almost impossible to get at that until they have had some experience and know what quantities they use. I am not a chemist, and only know this from a practical standpoint; that is all, and the uses to which manganese has gone for years. It is also usedthe high-grade ore-very largely in the glass and bottle trade. For instance, I have shipped to a glass and bottle concern some manganese that came from the Middle West. It was some of the Phelps & Dodge ore, and they came back to me and complained very much, saying that the ore was not right, that they had to use just twice as much as they did of the high-grade ore, and at the price manganese ore is to-day it, of course, makes a great deal of difference to them.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know about how much manganese ore is used in this country per year?

Mr. LAMSON. Of all grades of ore?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. LAMSON. I should say somewhere in the neighborhood of 800,000 tons.

The CHAIRMAN. And of that amount how much do we produce? Mr. LAMSON. I do not know; I saw those figures not a long while ago. I think we produced something like 300,000 tons last year although I could not tell you accurately about that. I have not been interested enough in the lower grade of ore to go into that matter

except as I heard it at a meeting here about a month or six weeks ago. I am better posted on what we call the high grade or chemical ore. The CHAIRMAN. How much of that is used?

Mr. LAMSON. I should say 40,000 to 50,000 tons a year.

Of that the largest proportion would be used by the National Carbon Co., of Cleveland. I should say that from 15,000 to 18,000 tons would be used by that one concern.

The CHAIRMAN. Please state to the committee just the use that the high-grade ore is put to.

Mr. LAMSON. It is used in dry batteries in making flash-light batteries, and it is also used as a drier in paint and varnishes, and it is used in glass and bottle trade. I believe there is also a very small quantity used in making up powder and in connection with powder, but the quantity is so small that it does not cut any figure. The largest trade is the battery trade, the next would be the glass and bottle trade, and the paint and varnish trade would be about the same, and as to the permanganate of potash there would be quite large quantities used of that, and then there are some concerns that are making up metals for which they have to have pure manganese by, I think, the old concern of Goldsmith & Thermit, New York-it is now the Thermit-Metals Co. They have changed their name since the war began. They are in the Equitable Building. They are making up manganese for the Government, I believe, and are making what they call a pure manganese, putting it in an entirely different state from what the ore is now in. I can not give you the formula and things of that kind, because if I could I should be in the manufacturing business.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the value of the high-grade ore that you are speaking of?

Mr. LAMSON. Do you mean from a purchasing standpoint? There is a good deal of difference.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, from the purchasing standpoint.

Mr. LAMSON. It will run from $75 a ton to $120 a ton, according to the arrangement which you can make. In the crude state, as it comes from the mine, it has to be ground up after you receive it; it has got to be put into condition to ship to the different manufacturers. One manufacturer desires it in granulated form and another in pieces as big as a little finger nail, and another desires it in pieces the size of granulated sugar. Others desire it in the fine form. It is used very largely in the brick trade, and that low-grade ore can also be used for that purpose as well as the high grade.

Senator SHAFROTH. For what purpose do they use it in the manufacture of bricks?

Mr. LAMSON. To make a mottled effect. You have seen these bricks with little bright spots in them?

Senator SHAFROTH. Yes.

Mr. LAMSON. That is the manganese. They use it very finely granulated.

Senator SHAFROTH. Manganese is not a black ore, is it, when it is taken from the earth?

Mr. LAMSON. Not exactly black. Most people designate it as black 'nt it is not. It is blue-black, or slate color. It varies in color con-iderably. I have seen some of it as crystal almost as silver ore.

It depends entirely upon where you get it. Take, for instance, the Nova Scotia ore. That is a light gray, a good deal of it, and crystalline. Take the Crimora ore; that is blue ore, blue-gray, and if you take other ores they would be still darker.

Senator SHAFROTH. What purpose does manganese have in these other uses that you stated it is put to?

Mr. LAMSON. Do you mean to what purpose is it put?

Senator SHAFROTH. Yes; what particular purpose does it subserve? Mr. LAMSON. It is used in paints and varnishes, for instance; it is used as a dryer. For instance, in the making up of paints and varnishes. You do not want paint or varnish that is going to take six or eight days to dry. They put this in to dry it, the same as we put it in steel to purify it. In crucible steel they put a certain amount of manganese, and under the influence of the heat it liberates the oxygen and throws the impurities to the surface.

Senator SHAFROTH. That is the defects in the steel?

Mr. LAMSON. Yes, sir; it takes those out.

Senator SHAFROTH. And vacuums and things of that kind.
Mr. LAMSON. Yes, sir; it takes out those impurities.

Senator SHAFROTH. Now as to batteries; what purpose does it serve?

Mr. LAMSON. It is used, as I understand, for the oxygen content in the manganese and the higher it is in MnO, the higher it is in oxygen. Now some ores, although they may be identically the same say two ores testing 25 per cent on the same analysis-might not be used for the same purpose. One may be a very hard ore that will retain its oxygen and not give it off under heat, and then there is soft ore which will liberate the oxygen quickly. There are many factors to be taken into consideration.

Senator SHAFROTH. In regard to the price of manganese, what is the lowest percentage of manganese that has a commercial value? Mr. LAMSON. Well, at a meeting that I attended some time ago I got quite a little information here in Washington. I think they use a content as low as 15 per cent metallic manganese.

Senator SHAFROTH. What do you mean by metallic manganese? Mr. LAMSON. Now, you have got me. You are asking me a question that I can not answer. MnO, is figured out from metallic: metallic is the unit of manganese, as I understand in the steel trade. You would purchase manganese at so much per unit, the unit of metallic manganese. Well, manganese running 50 per cent metallic MnO, would run about 80 per cent. There are some of those technical questions that I would not be able to answer.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand that there are about 40,000 or 50,000 tons of high-grade manganese imported?

Mr. LAMSON. Yes, sir; I should say in a year, 40,000 tons.

The CHAIRMAN. How much high-grade ore is produced in this country, if you know?

Mr. LAMSON. Well, of the ore, such as the concerns want, there is comparatively little. I would not say there are 2,000 or 3,000 tons produced here. I know that the Crimora people turn out some of that ore that is very high grade. Then there is another thing that has been found in very rare cases, and that is that manganese is formed in pockets. High-grade ore comes in pockets in the United States and is not found in the vein. If the cross vein is

large, producing a body of ore, you may get a pocket containing four or five or six hundred tons, or possibly a thousand tons, and then you are done with it.

Senator STERLING. Where is it found in this country principally?. Mr. LAMSON. In almost every State in the United States. It is found in West Virginia and in Virginia, some of the large mines, I think, and it is found in Tennessee, Georgia, California, Colorado, Utah, and Arkansas.

Senator STERLING. Where is it found in greater quantities or in paying quantities?

Mr. LAMSON. I should say in Virginia and in the Middle West. A great many mines have been developed in the Middle West, in Colorado and in Utah, and there are large deposits found in California. Some of them turn out to be pockets. We had one that we got a thousand tons from and tried to get more, but could not; it was a pocket.

Senator STERLING. Do you know whether any has been found in the Black Hills region in South Dakota?

Mr. LAMSON. I do not know; I could not say as to that, because almost all of these ores would be ores that would not interest me. The CHAIRMAN. There was at one time at least a great quantity of manganese shipped from Leadville, Colo. Do you know whether that production is continuing?

Mr. LAMSON. I do not know. I know that Phelps & Dodge are shipping quite a large lot of manganese, because we have been buying it. We have not been able to get as much high grade as we want, and have had to take a low-grade ore. We have been taking quite a little of their highest grade ore, but they are shipping to the steel trade, as I understand it. They have mines out there.

The CHAIRMAN. Of this amount of high-grade manganese that is imported, how much do you use?

Mr. LAMSON. We are not awfully large handlers; I suppose 2,000 or 5,000 tons a year. We used to be one of the largest importers. We have not imported as much ore lately as we formerly did. The National Carbon Co. are the largest importers of manganese ores. They might do it for us and somebody else might have a man diectly on the ground themselves. They are very large users.

The CHAIRMAN. You understand that the bill now under consideration is to encourage the production?

Mr. LAMSON. Exactly, but I think there is a whole lot of ore that ld be produced here. I think there are a whole lot of people who ave not the money to produce the ore, but if they were given enragement and helped along, the United States Government would get a lot more ore than it is getting to-day. I am speaking now of steel ore, which they want.

The CHAIRMAN. From what I understood you to say a little while go, when you first heard of this bill, you were of the impression that t might cause the importation to be affected.

Mr. LAMSON. To be affected on the higher grade ore.

The CHAIRMAN. And in your opinion that would be disastrous at s time to the industry of this country?

Mr. LAMSON. I do. really. It is not on account of the importation, ause my importations are comparatively small.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, your idea is that any bill of this kind which would interfere with importations until the production in this country was sufficient to satisfy the needs and requirements of the country would be disastrous?

Mr. LAMSON. Yes, sir; if we can get it in this country, I say get it by all means. But it can not be done. It has never been demonstrated up to date. Then take ores from different sections. Take the finest manganese ore that has ever been produced. It comes from Nova Scotia. We have a mine up there. I got a special permit from the Canadian Government to bring it in, but we got only two or three hundred tons a year.

The CHAIRMAN. How much did you get?

Mr. LAMSON. Some ran 91 and 92 per cent. It contained a lot of copper, but we wanted it and wanted it badly. The glass and bottle trade is very anxious for that ore, and the battery trade wants it.

Senator SHAFROTH. What use it is put to in the bottle trade? Mr. LAMSON. They use it for purifying the glass, giving it a clear color. They are eliminating manganese a great deal in the glass-andbottle trade to-day. They have a decolorizer now, which has taken the place in many instances of manganese in the bottle trade. They are not as large users of manganese as formerly, but the battery trade is increasing very rapidly.

Senator SHAFROTH. Is there any use for it in the manufacture of powder, and if so, what is that use?

Mr. LAMSON. That I could not tell you, because if it was it would be a secret process. The only manganese that we would sell would be to some fuse company. I think we have sold a few barrels to the department, but not enough to cut any figure. They may buy of others, I do not know. I could not tell you what use it was put to there.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you read this bill?

Mr. LAMSON. Just portions of it.

The CHAIRMAN. Your interest in the matter is then not per sonal

Mr. LAMSON. Not personal, at all.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not in opposition to the bill?

Mr. LAMSON. Absolutely not.

The CHAIRMAN. But in seeing that the importation of these hig grade ores is not interfered with until production in this count is sufficient to satisfy our needs?

Mr. LAMSON. My only intention in bringing the matter before y was this: I do not know possibly as much as a lot of you gentlem do here, but there are a lot of points that might be brought out th might seriously affect things by putting it right on a war basis f the Government, because we do need batteries. I am not talki for myself either, because I do not sell the National Carbon Co. dollar's worth of manganese ore, and they are the largest manufact ers of batteries in the United States. As a matter of fact, they really a combine and control a great many companies; they h bought up a great many of the other companies. Then there is Manhattan Electric and the Western Electric Co. and all of th companies which are manufacturing batteries, and a great man. them are manufacturing these flashlight batteries which are used