At a point in Boston the demurrage assessed in January 1942 was $1,080.90 but for the first 16 days in March was reduced to $15.40, and at Minneapolis a brokerage company had $439.50 demurrage charges in January 1942 and only $171.60 in February.

The Enid, Okla., plant of a large flour milling company in April and May 1942 handled 711 cars, many of these being released within 7 hours, and only 4 out of the 711 were held beyond 1 day.

At a shipbuilding plant in Portland, Maine, the car detention is as follows: January 1942, 281 cars handled, 170 cars held beyond free time; demurrage $748. March, 252 cars handled, 93 held beyond free time; demurrage $209. April, no demurrage. May, 288 cars handled, 93 held beyond free time; demurrage $7.70.

Pacific Coast Demurrage Bureau assessed the following demurrage against Southern Pacific patrons at Los Angeles: April 1941, demurrage $9,946.20; April 1942, demurrage $4,752.50; May 1941, demurrage $10,209.20; May 1942, demurrage $2,681.90.

On the Union Pacific: May 1941 on 5,724 cars handled, demurrage $2,255; May 1942 on 6,001 cars handled, demurrage $1,769.90.

Our reports show as to a large shipbuilding corporation in California: April 1942 on 198 cars handled, demurrage $479.60; May 1942 on 725 cars handled, demurrage $99.

At Kansas City, Mo., in June 1942 a check of 130 industries showed only 13 industries detaining cars beyond the free time.

At Memphis, Tenn., recent car detention by a steel company was as follows: April, 261 cars handled, 134 cars held beyond free time; demurrage $2,446.40; May, 146 cars handled, 68 cars held beyond free time; demurrage $573.30.

At Toledo, Ohio, records for an automobile plant show: March, 2,359 cars, 669 cars held beyond free time; demurrage $1,375; April 1,818 cars, 316 cars held beyond free time; demurrage $148.50.

Then it switched over from automobiles to war production, and in May it had 1,650 cars handled, 534 cars held beyond free time, and their demurrage went up to $3,063.50. This increase was due to an automobile plant changing its product from automobiles to war production.

At St. Louis, Mo., demurrage assessed on the Terminal Railroad shows: April 1941, $5,185.40; April 1942, $3,759.80; May 1941, $5,627.70; May 1942, $2,659.80.

At Kansas City, Mo., demurrage assessed by months in 1942 was as follows: January, $8,762.60; February, $8,177.60; March, $6,275.60; April, $3,749.20.

At Pueblo, Colo., demurrage assessed at a steel plant was as follows: February 1942, 6,661 cars, 1,424 beyond free time; demurrage $605. March 1942, 9,361 cars, 1,361 beyond free time; demurrage $484. April 1942, 9,961 cars, 1,186 beyond free time; demurrage $176. May 1942, 11,291 cars, 1,657 beyond free time; demurrage $481.80.

At a Toledo, Ohio, warehouse: January, demurrage $1,097.80; February, demurrage $566.50.

At a Bridgeport, Conn., manufacturing company: December, demurrage $1,382.80; January, demurrage $1,559.80; February, demurrage $88.

Senator REED. Mr. Johnson, may I break in on you a moment here? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. Going back to that Pueblo, Colo., I suppose you have reference to the C. F. & I. plant there?

Mr. KING. That is right.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. Do they operate under an average agreement?
Mr. JOHNSON. I presume so.

Senator REED. They must necessarily on your figures, must they

not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. This is a payment due after the application of the average agreement necessarily, is it not?

Mr. KING. Yes, sir; I think so.

Senator REED. Yes; Mr. Commissioner, it must be.

Mr. JOHNSON. Perhaps so.

Senator REED. Otherwise the very minimum charge that you could make on a car beyond free time would be $2.20.

Mr. JOHNSON. That is average. I am not certain of what they did. Senator REED. I think you should have shown that.

Mr. JOHNSON. We will rectify it to that extent; but, after all, the object was to show the vast improvement in car detention that has occurred. The C. F. & I. plant was at all times operating either on average agreement or straight demurrage, and it shows that it paid $605 on 6,661 cars in February 1942, whereas it paid only $481 on 11,291 cars in May 1942.

Senator REED. All right.

Mr. JOHNSON. I have several other items here.

At a Spokane, Wash., plant: December, demurrage $899.80; January, demurrage $539; February, demurrage $13.20.

At a Johnstown, Pa., steel company: January, 17,306 cars were handled, demurrage $2,183.50; February, 15,647 cars were handled, demurrage $1,160.50; March, 17,352 cars were handled, demurrage $176.50.

At a Detroit, Mich., motor manufacturing company plant: February, demurrage $2,256.10; March, demurrage $788.70.

At a Pontiac, Mich., automobile plant: February, 1,173 cars handled, 547 cars held beyond free time; demurrage $5,427.70. April 1942, handled 4,077 cars, 833 beyond free time; demurrage $5,767.30. At Cincinnati, Ohio, in May the average time for unloading refrigerator cars, including Sundays, was 1.98 as compared with 2.11 days in April; June is running 1.64 days.

At New Orleans, La., during the first week of May 1942 a brewing company had average car detention of 4.5 days per car; the next 2 weeks this dropped to 1.72 days.

At Detroit, Mich., an automobile manufacturing company: February, demurrage $2,070; March, demurrage $2,172.50; April, demurrage $574; May, 850 cars handled, 103 beyond free time; demurrage $5.50.

At Pittsburgh, Pa., Pittsburgh produce terminal: From May 1 to 19, 1,863 cars handled with only $211.20 demurrage assessed.

At Boston, Mass., produce terminal: In April, refrigerator car delay 1.6 days per car.

At Detroit, Mich., Produce Terminal 41.5 percent of cars handled were held beyond free time in February and 25 percent in March.

At East Cambridge, Mass., a soap company showed a progressive improvement in cars handled, as indicated: February, demurrage $1,978.90; March, demurrage $513.70; April, demurrage $345.40.

At Wichita, Kans., out of 95 industries on 3 roads, only 56 paid small amounts of demurrage in March.

At Quincy, Mass., a shipbuilding company:

An embargo was issued on July 9, 1941, on account of an accumulation of 216 cars, over half of which were over 3 days old. The situation improved, and in November 639 cars were handled, 114 of which were held beyond the free time; demurrage $72.60.

The May 1942 performance was 829 cars handled, 116 held beyond the free time, but compensated for by credits from early unloading. Summarizing improvement in and around Chicago: In June 1941 at 332 places covering a total of 12,000 industries, out of 10,000 cars reported for 1 day, 7,200 or 72 percent were held beyond the free time. In May 1942 at 414 points covering 22,700 industries, out of 12,000 cars reported for 1 day, only 2,040 or 17 percent were held beyond the free time.

Senator REED. You have given us some interesting information. By the way, now, Commissioner Johnson, does the Commission handle this large number of detentions at these various Army camps or munition works or ordnance plants with the War Department as to the delay in unloading?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes, sir; always, everywhere we go, we take it up with the man responsible; and if we do not have an improvement right away, we go back to him, and if it does not happen then we place an embargo. We do not wait until it happens. When these Army camps are laid out we are there and take it up with the people before, so that the materials come in as needed and can be unloaded properly, promptly. And the Army, I must say, learned its lesson of the last war well. They are not shipping into these camps things that are needed late and leaving them loaded. They are getting in there the things they need first and then unloading. The Army camps have done a wonderful job.

Now as to your last question that you desired the chairman to discuss. And I think you are wise, Mr. Chairman; Acting Chairman Aitchison could discuss this item very much more skillfully than could I.

Question G-The feasibility of imposing extra demurrage charges during seasons when a particular type of car is in the most demand: Of course, there are many particular types of cars that can be used otherwise than for the lading for which designed, and therefore a particular car has a general effect. I agree with you thoroughly that in times of this sort compensation to the railroad is of small amount, and too the individual shipper is of small moment. It is the general situation that we are interested in, always, and I must say that to a greater extent than I ever expected I find the railroads, the shipper, and the consignee interested in the general situation.

Senator REED. I wonder if you have the same experience that we have: We find everybody perfectly willing to help win the war if the other fellow will do it.

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; I have not had that experience.
Senator REED. We are going into that.

Mr. JOHNSON. I want to say that in the 2 years I have been connected with the railroads-and I include in that term everybody interested in railroad transportation-I have never found more cheerful, spontaneous cooperation and readiness to make individual sacrifices for the common good. But they do object seriously to the promulgation of orders unless it be made clear that the order is temporary. The reaction so far has been the most satisfactory experience of my life. Improvements have been made. You may rest assured that the Commission will not delay until difficulties and troubles accrue. The railroad interests know that timely action will be taken.

Senator REED. I had in mind to bring up while Chairman Aitchison was testifying, a thought that I have long had; that, once you have reached a fair demurrage charge applied to general conditions all the time, then you might consider the application of extra demurrage charges over and above the basic demurrage charge on a seasonal basis. For instance, we all know, particularly we folks out in the Grain Belt, that boxcars have their peak of demand from July to October. If there are lots of boxcars in the country-and there usually is a surplus from November to May, and usually to June the ordinary demurrage charge applicable serves all purposes. No particular penalty is needed because nobody else needs the boxcar. If the carrier is fairly compensated for the use of its property, that is about all that is required; during that period the compensation factor comes in. But from July to October somebody else is being deprived of the use of the boxcar for transportation when it is used for storage. That is true of coal cars from October to January; it is true of refrigerators during certain periods of the year.

I should like to have the Commission and the railroads consider, Mr. Chairman, whether or not an extra demurrage charge should be applied during that seasonal demand for particular types of cars. That goes to the heart of this whole question.

Nobody wants to impose additional charges when they are not necessary and do not accomplish any purpose, always provided the carrier is reasonably compensated for the use of its property. The chap I am thinking of all the time is the man who wants to use a car for transportation and which is denied him when somebody else is using it for storage; I have had that question raised over and over again through my long contact with this question, particularly in the Grain Belt and particularly with boxcars; I am saying right now, and I think everybody agrees upon this, that unless we can expedite this loading and unloading of open-top cars from October to January we are going to run into a very definite and disastrous shortage of open-top

cars.

Mr. Eastman and Mr. Gormley had lunch with me the Saturday before the Monday that I made that speech in the Senate, and we discussed this whole thing. We all know right now we have plenty of boxcars and right now not plenty of open-top cars but enough to get by. But this is June, and the last weekly report of the Association of American Railroads shows virtually no surplus of open-top cars; it does show a narrow margin, but of course there is always a narrow margin. Even if you had a car shortage, in a general statement like that there would still appear a small surplus of cars. open-top car situation is stringent right now.

74838-42--3

This

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Senator REED. And when these coal people come on I want them to bear that in mind, because as far as our contact with this problem is concerned we are trying to be helpful and to emphasize the situation that those of us who have given consideration to the whole situation see so very clearly.

Now go ahead, Mr. Johnson.

Mr. JOHNSON. I do not think there is any question in the minds of the industry that they are eventually going to pay higher demurrage charges. I think they are prepared for it.

Senator REED. No, Mr. Commissioner; paying high demurrage charges does not answer the problem of the man who wants to use that car for transportation. I do not care how high you make a demurrage charg, unless it results in an unloading of the car you have not helped the man who is deprived of that car for transportation purposes. You have to make your extra demurrage charge, from a penalty standpoint, high enough to do the business. Now where that mark or where that line comes, I am perfectly willing to take everybody's testimony on that point.

Mr. JOHNSON. Of course a high demurrage charge is not going to make a car available for someone else unless it hastens a man in loading or unloading. That is its only effect, and that is all, I am sure, you are interested in; for I read your speech with a great deal of interest, and I know I am giving you no information.

Senator REED. I sit, figuratively at least, at the feet of Chairman Aitchison and Mr. Eastman.

Mr. JOHNSON. Your speech convinced us that you are very farsighted and experienced in transportation, Senator.

Senator REED. Thank you.

Mr. JOHNSON. And this is what we say in reply to G. "The feasibility of imposing extra demurrage charges during seasons when a particular type of car is in the most demand"; and, as I said, a particular car often has a general use.

Senator REED. That is right.

Mr. JOHNSON. And it bears on the whole situation.

It is feasible to impose extra demurrage charges for a particular type of car whenever a season is approaching and it is ascertainable with reasonable accuracy that a shortage of that type of car will develop, when it is known that cars are unreasonably detained either at loading points, en route, or at destination. Such procedure has been followed, but the imposition should be adjustable and for such duration as may be found necessary.

Senator REED. I agree with you entirely.

Mr. JOHNSON. That is the Commission's response to E, F, and G. Senator REED. Thank you very much, Mr. Commissioner.

Senator TUNNELL. That leaves out entirely the question as to where the restriction or the demurrage regulation should come from, whether it should be by statute or the usual way.

Mr. JOHNSON. Chairman Aitchison has spoken about that. My individual idea concerning that is, we have had no trouble at all in securing unanimous agreement on altering the demurrage rates and putting them into effect almost immediately.

Senator REED. I am going to make a suggestion shortly, Senator Tunnell, along that line, but I now want to say that on June 23 when