weighed until 24 or 48 hours after it is shipped. The allowance is not always made where sufficient time for drainage has occurred between loading and weighing.

Senator REED. Is there a tariff provision to that effect?

Mr. GOODYEAR. The tariff is permissive. If the shipper calls for the allowance he can have it. The shipper calls for the allowance based on the situation of the relation of the mine to the scales. Some tariffs have a provision varying the amount of the allowance in relation to time between loading and weighing. In other words, you have one allowance that is good up to 3 hours, and a different allowance between 3 and 24 hours, and a different allowance after 24 hours.

Senator REED. Well, I have learned something about the anthracite coal industry.

Mr. GOODYEAR. There are still a lot of us trying to learn something about moisture. It is not a closed book at all. Another thing that happens to anthracite coal, even if moderately dry when shipped it may run into a rainstorm followed by a snowstorm and freeze up, so that anthracite coal shipped reasonably dry may be frozen when it gets to the consignee.

Senator REED. I take it shipments of coal the United States over are somewhat subject to that.

Mr. GOODYEAR. Yes. I have no doubt there is a certain amount of bituminous coal that has the same difficulty of unloading on account of freezing, but I think it is worse with anthracite coal because practically all of it is shipped wet.

Senator REED. I did not know that you shipped all anthracite coal

wet.

Mr. GOODYEAR. I think every process that is now effective_for cleaning anthracite coal needs a very large quantity of water. The last thing we do before we put coal into a car is to run it over a screen under a very high pressure stream of water, to clean off all dust. I think most producers have a somewhat similar arrangement.

Senator REED. Is that all that you have to present?

Mr. GOODYEAR. I want to say something about seasonal demurrage. Senator REED. We will be glad to have you do that.

Mr. GOODYEAR. You used the term "from October to January” as being the time when shipments of coal were heavier and the demands on car supply greater. Last year the big portion of the anthracite coal business started about the middle of June. People got excited and started ordering in their coal. That was fine. The anthracite mines were operated every day they were able to operate from the middle of June until about the first of November. On the first of November the demand ceased, and from the first of November until the first part of this year we were running only 2 or 3 days a week. The job of filling the needs of consumers was done so fully that we did not have a thing to do all winter.

This year we started the big push on the 1st of April. Our production has been somewhat reduced by the floods we had in the mining regions, the effects of which are still felt. But the chances are that by the first of October of this year the big job will be done. Unless something happens to stimulate demand for anthracite coal I do not believe we will have any big load in October, November, and December of this year.

Senator REED. How much benefit will the anthracite coal industry receive from the shortage of fuel oil in New England and New York due to shortage of transportation from the West?

Mr. GOODYEAR. I do not believe any man could answer that question. A great many heating plants and a great many industrial steam plants have been converted from oil to anthracite. I think, however, the average householder has assumed a complacent attitude in the matter, one that he may find in November was not justified. Whether the present priority on grates for coal installation will continue until November, I do not know. Grates can now be had.

Senator REED. You think the mercy of God and of the War Production Board is a little uncertain?

Mr. GOODYEAR. I would doubt very much if I should count on the mercy of God. He was most merciful last winter to the consumer, not so merciful to us. I think working along the line of the laws of average we might expect His mercy would be shown to the coal man this year. As to the consumer who has failed to convert his heating apparatus from oil to coal, he may have reason to regret it. Senator REED. That is undoubtedly true. What steps is the anthracite coal industry taking to push this project to the phase of a favorable condition for it?

Mr. GOODYEAR. Well, we have engineers out working on consumers. Senator REED. That is a little beyond the purview of this subcommittee.

Mr. GOODYEAR. However, it is a little difficult for us to do any great amount of advertising and things of that kind because we are faced with unfilled orders running up into the tens of thousands of cars, orders which we cannot fill and which probably will not be filled for a month, 6 weeks, or 2 months.

Senator REED. I would say the mercy of God is being extended to the operators right now.

Mr. GOODYEAR. Right now we are doing about all we can do. And the hysteria of the coal-buying public has not broken out into print as yet, but it is really an awful sight to sit around some of the coal yards or sit around some of the producers, as well as the departments, and see how people are shouting and yelling for coal.

Senator REED. Is not that a happy situation for you?

Mr. GOODYEAR. From one point of view, yes. But from my personal point of view it is pretty harrowing.

Senator REED. It would seem that some people have been working to enlist the interest of the general public to go out and buy coal, including ourselves.

Mr. GOODYEAR. You have done a wonderful job because they have been around our necks every minute.

Senator REED. And that is what should be done in order to get coal moving at a time when the railroads can move it.

Mr. GOODYEAR. That is one of the difficulties we are finding in the matter of getting people to convert from oil to coal. So much has been said about the possibility of a shortage of transportation for coal that a great many people are saying, "Well, why convert? We are going to be short of coal, too, so we might as well be short of oil."

Senator REED. That is possible, but of course the chances of getting coal, particularly anthracite coal, which stores so much better than

bituminous coal, is such that I am not surprised at the resistance of the public to the anthracite story, as I would be to the bituminous side of it. Bituminous coal does not store very well. It goes to slack, and one may have spontaneous combustion and a number of other things that anthracite coal does not have.

Mr. GOODYEAR. That is true as to some grades of bituminous coal. There are other grades of bituminous coal that keep for a long time. Senator REED. But it is not equal to anthracite coal in that respect. Mr. GOODYEAR. No. But you can easily take care of a season's requirements by storing bituminous coal.

Senator REED. There is a shortage of transportation essential to supply fuel oil for New York and New England. There seems to be no escape from that condition under the most favorable circumstances that anybody may now anticipate. There will not be fuel oil enough moved east by railroad, pipe line, or water to take care of this coming winter's heating requirements. There is no shortage of anthracite coal and no shortage of anthracite coal transportation now. Mr. GOODYEAR. No; and none in sight.

Senator REED. Therefore, anybody with ordinary common sense who can use either bituminous or anthracite should go ahead and prepare himself even if you do have to be some weeks behind with filling orders.

Mr. GOODYEAR. That is our only difficulty, to convince our customers that while they may not be able to get it promptly now, there is more danger that they will not be able to get it before their houses get cold.

Senator REED. How much more anthracite coal are you mining now?

Mr. GOODYEAR. I think we are about 13 percent ahead of last year. Senator REED. Are you up to capacity production?

Mr. GOODYEAR. We are not up to what we should be doing. Floods have hampered some of the companies. My own company is about 5,500 tons behind what it should be producing.

Senator REED. Is there any prospect of improvement?

Mr. GOODYEAR. I hope that mine will be back on the line pretty soon, if we can get the water out. Some of these mines are in very bad shape, and a couple of them have their pumps under water.

Senator REED. Have you had any shortage in transportation so far? Mr. GOODYEAR. No. Our transportation service is better now than it has been since I have been in the anthracite coal business, and that goes back 15 years.

Senator REED. Is there anything else you wish to say?

Mr. GOODYEAR. I would like to submit this resolution of the New Jersey Industrial Traffic League.

Senator REED. I have a copy of that resolution. Whether or not some of these resolutions will be incorporated in our record will be decided when we get time to have an executive session. We will then determine what we will put into the record.

Mr. GOODYEAR. For all the reasons given, I am authorized by the Atlantic States Shippers Advisory Board, the Anthracite Institute, and the New York State Retail Solid Fuel Merchants' Association, to express to you the hope that you will recommend that this resolution be not passed.

I am requested by the New Jersey Industrial Traffic League to present to you this resolution, also in opposition to the resolution. (Thereupon Mr. Goodyear left the committee table.) Senator REED (presiding). We will hear the next witness.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES E. BELL, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY OF THE PROPERTY OWNERS' COMMITTEE, REPRESENTING THE COAL OPERATORS' ASSOCIATION OF SOUTHERN WEST VIRGINIA AND EASTERN KENTUCKY

Mr. BELL. Our district mines about 150,000,000 tons of bituminous coal a year, and the associations represented by the property owners' committee, the districts in which they are located, mine about 100,000,000 tons.

We are prepared to submit in detail our opposition to the resolution as it now reads, and hope to be given that opportunity later.

Senator REED. I thought maybe someone would come along and appear for this resolution.

Mr. BELL. We are particularly interested in coal loaded at mines known as the so-called lake cargo coal and coal that goes to tidewater, as our districts are the greatest mass producers and shippers of coal to the lakes and to tidewater of any bituminous coal producers in the country.

We are very glad to know that this matter will be held over until the 1st of November, and we feel if the situation has not been worked out by the Interstate Commerce Commission or the Office of Defense Transportation by that time, that we can present our views to your subcommittee.

I will ask leave to have inserted at this point a brief statement which I will prepare and send to the chairman.

(The statement furnished by Mr. Bell is as follows:)

STATEMENT OF CHARLES E. BELL-RE SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION 147 BEFORE SENATE SUBCOMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE COMMERCE, JULY 1, 1942

My name is Charles E. Bell and I appear on behalf of the Property Owners' Committee, which is a committee of coal operators selected by the different associations of coal operators whose mines are situated in southern West Virginia and eastern Kentucky on the lines of the Chesapeake & Ohio, Norfolk & Western, and Virginian Railways. This committee has general supervision and direction of traffic and transportation matters affecting the common interests of the operators belonging to these various associations. In 1941, the southern West Virginia and eastern Kentucky mines produced something over 150,000,000 tons out of the total production of something over 500,000,000 tons of coal in the United States, and I can say without fear of contradiction that the bituminous-coal tonnage moving from southern West Virginia and eastern Kentucky constitutes the greatest mass transportation in the United States.

Statement was made yesterday that the movement of cargo coal to lake ports in 1941 was 50,000,000 tons. Thirty-two million tons of this coal came from southern West Virginia and eastern Kentucky which also shipped in the same year, in round figures, 22,000,000 gross tons of coal to the Hampton Roads ports for transshipment. By far, the greater portion of the coal produced in southern West Virginia and eastern Kentucky comes from the districts represented by the Property Owners' Committee. Obviously, we are vitally concerned with anything which may affect the production and prompt movement of our coal.

I shall not take up the time of the committee in a reiteration of what Mr. Estes, of the National Coal Association, has already told you. I fully concur in what he has said but I cannot too strongly stress the fact that it is not possible to apply the same demurrage and car service rules regulations, and practices, in the loading

of bituminous coal at the mines as are observed on freight traffic in general. Nor is it possible to enforce the same demurrage requirements at the lake ports and at the tidewater ports on the tremendous movement of cargo coal and tidewater coal transshipped by vessel at those ports. It would be like trying to compel a man with a No. 14 foot to wear a No. 6 shoe.

I say unhesitatingly that, if Senate Joint Resolution 147 should be enacted into law it would thoroughly disrupt and demoralize the production and distribution of coal in the producing districts I represent, and I am very much gratified at the statement of Senator Reed that no conclusions will be reached by the subcommittee for the time being but that the record will be kept open for 3 or 4 months. I am satisfied that the data pertaining to the loading and unloading of bituminous coal, which will have been furnished you by Colonel Johnson and his staff and by Chairman Kendall, of the Association of American Railroads, will convince the subcommittee that no legislation of this kind will be necessary, particularly as it may relate to the loading of bituminous coal at the mines or the unloading of cargo coal and tidewater coal to vessels at the ports. The coal operators represented by the Property Owners' Committee have been giving their "all-out" cooperation to the railroads and to the Interstate Commerce Commission to attain the greatest car efficiency. They will continue to do so. If, at the end of the probation period named by Senator Reed the subcommittee is not satisfied that the maximum has been accomplished, insofar as bituminous coal is concerned, I desire to go on record now in asking that the Property Owners' Committee, and such others engaged in the bituminous coal industry as may desire, be given an opportunity to fully acquaint the subcommittee with the methods used in the mining and loading of bituminous coal, its handling and unloading at the lake and tidewater ports, and the necessity for practical and workable car service and demurrage requirements which will assure maximum production and the most efficient transportation and distribution.

In response to an inquiry of Senator Reed, Mr. Estes stated that I could probably furnish some figures showing the tonnage of bituminous coal moving to New England by all-rail and the tonnage moving through the tidewater ports. According to the records of the Bituminous Coal Division the New England receipts, by rail, in 1941, were 6,338,000 tons. According to the figures of the Association of American Railroads, 91,116 cars of bituminous coal were forwarded from all New England gateways during the period January 1st to June 6, 1942, inclusive, compared with 49,457 cars from January 1st to June 7, 1941, inclusive. I may mention, incidentally, that the anthracite movement during the same periods was 51,118 cars and 44,615 cars, respectively. During the year 1941, 13,428,000 net tons of bituminous coal were transshipped by vessel from the Atlantic ports of New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Hampton Roads, destined to New England. It is well known that by reason of demoralized shipping conditions large quantities of New England coal, which formerly moved via tidewater ports and vessels, have been and is now moving via all-rail, and for obvious reasons the figures showing the vessel movement in 1942 have not been made public.

Senator REED (presiding). We will hear the next gentleman.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES R. SEAL, BALTIMORE, MD., REPRESENTING THE BALTIMORE ASSOCIATION OF COMMERCE

Mr. SEAL. I had intended to submit a fairly brief statement for the National Industrial Traffic League, but I think you have already heard from witnesses about the most of the points I would mention, and to avoid imposing on your time and patience I will be very glad, with your permission, to submit a prepared statement within the next few days.

Senator REED. We want to close these hearings today for the present, but we will hold the record open. When can you get that statement to us?

Mr. SEAL. I can get it here by the first of the week.

Senator REED. That will be satisfactory.