Mr. RAVENEL. They wanted the right kind of discharge book. They did not want one that was worthless. What was suggested by Senator La Follette was an act which would make a discharge book which really amounted to something illegal.

The CHAIRMAN. If you have found a good discharge book, please send us a sample.

Mr. RAVENEL. What we want in the discharge book is an expression of opinion as to whether the sailor is a good man or not. Our friend, Mr. Furuseth, does not want that kind. So long as a man is a seamen, good, bad, or indifferent, he is, says Mr. Furuseth, all right. We want a discharge book reciting what sort of man the sailor is.

Mr. RAKER. I want to say in behalf of Mr. Furuseth that he has never stood for a mala fide seaman.

Mr. RAVENEL. I do not want to be understood as criticizing Mr. Furuseth.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you send us a copy of the discharge book you have in mind?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes, sir.

[A sample "Continuous certificate of discharge," bound in buckram, was submitted by the witness. Printed matter contained therein, including sample page form, is printed hereafter, as follows:]

CONTINUOUS CERTIFICATE OF DISCHARGE No. 196

AMERICAN STEAMSHIP OWNERS' ASSOCIATION, 11 BROADWAY, NEW YORK The lawful holder of this certificate will deliver it to the master of the vessel when he signs articles of agreement, and the master will retain it in his possession until the seaman is discharged or has left the ship.

When the seaman terminates his service with the ship, the master will deliver the certificate to the seaman after filling out the various columns as provided.

This certificate is a personal record of the seaman and it is, therefore, requested that it be carefully preserved.

If this certificate is lost or stolen, a duplicate will be issued without charge upon proper presentation to the company in which the seaman was last employed.

Should this certificate be found by any person it should be forwarded immediately to the American Steamship Owners' Association, 11 Broadway, New York, U. S. A.

TO MASTERS

When a seaman joins your vessel, this certificate is to be taken up and the proper entry made in the columns provided. The book is to be retained until the seaman is discharged or quits the vessel. When the seaman is discharged or quits the employment, the master is to fill out the various columns as provided and, after signing it, return the book to the seaman. If the seaman deserts, appropriate entry of the facts is to be entered in this book and the book forwarded to the owner of the vessel.

Masters will be held responsible by the company for the correctness and truthfulness of the entries in the book, and are requested to record carefully and conscientiously the seaman's efficiency and conduct for the time he has been employed on the vessel.

TO SEAMAN

The certificate is to be delivered to the master of the vessel when you sign articles and will be retained by him until such time as you leave the vessel.

The employing company at all times will be glad to receive any suggestions from the men on their vessels looking to economy or improvement in the sea service conditions. Any employee who sees an opportunity to increase the efficiency or who has any comments to make regarding the conditions of employment is free to communicate with the company at all times.

If a seaman is of the opinion that his efficiency or conduct has been incorrectly entered in the book, he has the privilege of laying his case before the marine superintendent of the company.

Name of seaman_

Full name of seaman_

Place of birth_

Age Date of birth_.
pounds. Hair,
Rating,

Total years' sea experience,

1

2

3

4

5

6

Signature of seaman (give middle name or initials) –
Name and address of next kin (name)

(address)

description of voyage

Name of vessel, official number, Date and place of joining vessel

Rating

Date and place of discharge

Mr. RAKER. What would be your attitude, and objection, if any, in regard to requiring steamship owners engaged in the coastwise trade who employ deserting seamen who are deportable under the law to pay for such deportations?

Mr. RAVENEL. I do not know enough about the coastwise trade to answer that question, but why should the steamship owner be penalized? The man is in the country because the United States laws let him in, and there may not be any way of the steamship owner knowing whether he is here illegally or not.

May we submit a statement concerning the Holaday bill and on these pending amendments? I would write it up and mail it to you. Mr. SABATH. I think the gentleman should have that privilege. The CHAIRMAN. All right; without objection the request will be granted. The purpose of this committee is to seek information, and we are always glad to get the views of anybody who is qualified to speak.

Mr. RAKER. You do not have in mind touching upon any other subject that the one under discussion now by the committee?

Mr. RAVENEL. No; I would simply amplify the various arguments on the Holaday bill.

The CHAIRMAN. The witness appears before the committee telling us hurriedly his views. Owing to his being interrupted by members of the committee, and his short time, he can not always state his views fully and clearly, and I do not see any objection to his amplifying his statement. Without objection the witness may add to his statement.

Mr. CABLE. In that statement put what percentage of the various companies' tonnage is represented here.

Mr. RAVENEL. I will.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions to ask Mr. Ravenel, and he has nothing further to say, let us hear from the next gentleman.

STATEMENT OF MR. EDWIN H. DUFF, ATTORNEY AT LAW, WASHINGTON, D. C.

I

The CHAIRMAN. Whom do you represent, Mr. Duff? Mr. DUFF. The Pacific-American Steamship Association. simply desire to read into the record a telegram that came to me recently from the Pacific coast.

Mr RAKER. Do you desire to be heard further than that?

Mr. DUFF. No; I live in Washington, where I practice law. I represent the Pacific-American Steamship Association. I am watching out for the interest of that association in a way. This is the first occasion upon which I have appeared before the Committee on Immigration, as I have no interest in the general subject of immigration. I simply desire to read this telegram into the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well; proceed to do so.

Mr. DUFF. It says, under date of January 21, 1925:

In protesting against the possible inclusion of this rider it should be understood that the present crews of American ships operating in the Pacific in competition with foreign ships are in compliance with the present laws and regulations, and there is no valid reason why any change should be made. American ships are in keen competition with all other nations who are carrying Asiatic labor, principally Japanese, who are in direct competition with our ships on the Pacific Ocean trade routes. Our American steamers trading out of the Pacific coast go through the Tropics where it is impracticable for white men to give efficient service. This has been demonstrated by years of experience in this trade on the Pacific. In fact great difficulty has been experienced in obtaining white crews of any kind satisfactory or unsatis factory who will stick on the job.

If a provision of this kind were put into effect, it would virtually mean that the foreign lines, particularly Japanese, British, and Norwegian ships at the present time, would monopolize the shipping business in the Pacific Ocean and drive American shipping, already established on the Pacific Ocean under great handicaps, off the seas. Although this may not appear on the surface to be a vital question, nevertheless on the Atlantic and particularly on the Pacific Ocean it is the one question whose determination would either make or break the American merchant marine.

Attention should also be strongly invited to the fact that recent legislation and efforts of previous administrations have all been attempts to aid the American merchant marine, and an amendment of this kind would be a reversal of this policy and disastrous to American shipping, particularly on the Pacific Ocean.

With reference to the provisions of the rider which would require American vessels to take out as many alien seamen as it brought in, this provision is utterly impracticable. For example, an American ship taking out an American crew to a foreign country and crew deserting would be forced to employ foreign seamen to bring the ship home. Having done this the provision proposed would make it impossible to reemploy American seamen upon arrival at American ports. Therefore this provision would effectively discriminate against the employment of American seamen on American vessels.

PACIFIC-AMERICAN STEAMSHIP ASSOCIATION.

STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT F. HAND, NEW YORK CITY

The CHAIRMAN. What is your address?

Mr. HAND. Room 518, 26 Broadway, New York City.
The CHAIRMAN. For whom do you appear?

Mr. HAND. I am a member of the committee representing the American Steamship Owners' Association and am also assistant manager of the marine department of the Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey.

Mr. Ravenel has discussed these amendments to this bill from the viewpoint of the passenger lines. We are operating tank steamers, and the same conditions apply to freight vessels where our crew is no larger than absolutely necessary to operate the ship. There are cases where men slip into our crews-men who are not bona fide seamen and not admissible but why should we be called upon to pay the expense of their deportation? Why should we not be allowed to take them back on our own ship? We got into the difficulty unintentionally, with no intention of violating the law. While in one or a few instances this may not be expensive, but nevertheless it would be putting upon us an expense that is not justified, especially in these days.

The CHAIRMAN. There will not be much of it if you are earnest in your efforts.

Mr. HAND. Fifty or one hundred dollars is a lot of money when one is not operating in a remunerative rate. I am talking more for the freight vessels now who are trying and striving to make ends meet. As a matter of fact, they are not making ends meet.

Mr. RAKER. Within the last two days you have increased the cost of gasoline by 2 cents a gallon.

Mr. HAND. I know I am subject to attack simply because I am from the Standard Oil Co. However, I am speaking now as a representative of the American Steamship Owners' Association also.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought your remarks concerned your own line of ships.

Mr. HAND. I am also speaking for the American Steamship Owners' Association."

The CHAIRMAN. You have stated that now and then a man or a few men might slip into your crew unobserved by you. Speak-, ing of merchandise ships generally, do you think there is much of that?

Mr. HAND. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Taking into consideration all vessels carrying freight, there is very little of that going on?

Mr. HAND. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Then the penalties assessed would not amount to much, would they?

Mr. HAND. Perhaps not, but a $50 bill now looks like a thousanddollar bill used to when freight rates were better.

The CHAIRMAN. The penalty for bringing an alien to the United States illegally is, I believe, $1,000?

Mr. HAND. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Last summer a freighter brought 13 or 15 orientals to a minor port in my State. All were caught and a fine was assessed. The shipping line protested against the payment, saying they could not shake off 13 orientals before they departed on the trip to the United States.

Mr. HAND. In case of a freighter they could not.

The CHAIRMAN. They could not have smoked them out?