ADMINISTRATION AND USE OF PUBLIC LANDS FRIDAY, MAY 11, 1945 UNITED STATES SENATE, COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC LANDS AND SURVEYS, Phoenix, Ariz. Senator HATCH. The meeting will come to order. Mr. Woolley I ve you said you wanted to be heard again this morning. Will come around and take this chair and tell us what you have in ad. STATEMENT OF ROY B. WOOLLEY—Resumed Mr. WOOLLEY. The first matter we want to take up this morning is the matter of the memorandum of agreement respecting grazing privon the Lake Mead recreation area. Senator GURNEY. What area? Mr WOOLLEY. The Lake Mead recreation area. The Boulder I'm area. I would like to digress just a minute if I may. I would to state that 2 years ago we had so many perplexing problems on Arizona strip that Senator McCarran held a meeting in Fredonia, Ar Nobody ever heard of Yalta until the Big Three held a meeting re, but after this meeting at Fredonia, everybody knows about Fredonia. Senator McCarran appeared there and our main griev-well, we had a lot of them, and most of them have been satisonly settled after that meeting, and we have been clearing them We had a buffalo situation in the Houserock Valley, which is een the State Game Department and the users of the Houserock Valley. They had a big area set aside there for buffalo. Most of them had in mind if they had that they would enlarge it and take it but through the efforts made by Senator McCarran, and the sport we got from the Cattlegrowers Association, and O. C. Williams, dhe Government, we straightened that up satisfactorily, and they living up to the agreement. We have a written agreement on the matter. So that was settled. There was also some problems came up as to the administration of fist lands and grazing lands, and we have an agreement now pre d to the Advisory Board at the last meeting regarding the Fung privileges on the Kaibab. The Forest Service said, "We will mister certain areas," and designated the areas through bound, "and the Grazing Service will administer all other lands." The e preserve, there is a game preserve on the Kaibab, and also the The game preserve extends beyond the boundaries of the best yet has always been under the supervision of the forest. Well hat case the Forest Service said, "We will administer this part and To administer that under the Taylor Grazing Act," so that we ot have any difficulty there. We know where we stand. Now there was some question came up as to grazing privileges e the Kaibab National Forest and the national park. We are m satisfied. The Forest Service haven't admitted anything. bi they seem to have a trend in their management more liberal towa grazing on the Kaibab, and that is working out nicely. Now, other questions came up. One was regarding withdrawa on the Arizona strip. The Arizona strip before the Colorado bridg was put in, was segregated from the rest of Arizona, and we were stepchild, but since that time they began to recognize us, and it hu always been a happy hunting ground for anybody that wanted t make a withdrawal, no matter who he was, he would come out fro Washington with an order. They didn't go by sections and town ships, they went by longitude and latitude. There was no end to i when they withdrew. Senator HATCH. How much territory is in that strip, what is th size of it? Mr. WOOLLEY. A little over 3,000,000 acres. Senator GURNEY. Is that the famous Arizona strip where all th desperadoes went in old pioneer times? Mr. WOOLLEY. Yes; and we are still there, some of us. Senator WILLIS. Is it forest land? Mr. WOOLLFY. Part is forest land and part-- mostly withdrawals Mr. FORSLING. The Colorado River comes through here and this is the Arizona strip [indicating on map]. Mr. WOOLLEY. It is that part of Mojave and Coconino County that lies north of the Colorado River. Mr. FORSLING. This is grazing district, this is National Forest, thr is the Grand Canyon National Monument, and this is the area Mr Woolley has reference to findicating on map]. Senator HATCH. Where is the bridge? Mr. FORSLING. The bridge is over here. Mr. WOOLLEY. The grazing district has 3,000,000 acres. Mr. WOOLLEY. Now these withdrawals come under the National Park Service. I don't know why, but it is the policy of the Park Service to eliminate grazing from any area that comes under their supervision, and that is our quarrel. During that time, if you have read the proceedings, I presume you have the proceedings of the McCarran hearing, that seems to be the theme song, we wanted a perpetuity of our grazing privileges. Now when these were set aside, we protested through Senator Smoot. That was before Arizona knew they had much. We protested through Senator Smoot. Horace M. O'Brien was the Superintendent of Parks at that time, and Senator Smoot took the matter of the vast withdrawals up with Mr. O'Brien, and he came back and said "these withdrawals will in no way affect the grazing privileges." Senator Smoot came back and said, "They definitely will in no way affect the grazing privileges; we don't see where you have any complaint." We took Mr. O'Brien at his word. But as soon as the Park Service took over they began to eliminate grazing, and that is our problem. Now you take the Arizona strip; there is no land particularly of any value over there to put on the assessment roll. The whole tax reve - has to come from livestock, and our taxes are three times larger Coconino County north of the river than they are south of the river, just because of these withdrawals and the elimination of grazing. Now we have some little towns over there that get big-town ideas, we want to support them, but there is the tax burden, while if ng could continue on these areas, there is room for more than more cattle on the strip, if we were not curtailed. We can't Yet to withdrawals, provided they do not interfere with grazing. nator HATCH. Are there any new withdrawals contemplated? Mr. WOOLLEY. There is nothing left to withdraw. It is all withexcept a few alkali flats down there under the Taylor Act. That we have to depend on. aator HATCH. Your only relief would be to permit grazing on is already withdrawn? Mr. WOOLLEY. Yes; but they are trying to withdraw that. Senator GURNEY. Where is the area where they are withdrawing 4-ind? Mr. WOOLLEY. You look over there and you see the withdrawals; it Lard to find where we do get along. This is the area we are talking doit now, the Boulder Dam [indicating on map]. Vow as I say, the hearing we had in Fredonia cleared the atmosphere d did us a lot of good, but when it comes to the Park Service we pped. At the hearing out there we had the Park Service, and they a pretty good panning from the Senator on these matters, and the stimony of the witnesses will show what we had in mind. And out ere they announced that there was an agreement in the process of Eg consummated or determined how these things should be done, and the Senator tried to have that presented at the Phoenix hearing. ator McCarran said that would be very fine. At the Phoenix eeting they did present a memorandum of understanding as to the azing, how the grazing on these areas will be handled. Senator HATCH. Who presented that? Mr. WOOLLEY. The Park Service, the Forest Service, the Fish and Widlife, and the Boulder Dam Recreation Area, signed by Mr. Rose, R Brooks, C. F. Dierking, Albert M. Day, M. R. Tillotson, and JH. Leech. Senator HATCH. What page is that? Mr. WOOLLEY. Page 2945 of the McCarran hearings. Now that is satisfactory. It provides in there that this area shall be adstered under the Taylor Grazing Act by the Grazing Service. also provides in there that if there is any higher use to be made of sarea the grazing will have to step aside for that, which is perfectly vable. It also provides that licenses shall be issued on the base operty. Another provision in there is there shall not be a cancellaon of a license unless there is a loss of a base property, which is aly Taylor Grazing Act. If you lose the base property you lose the Ping privilege in that proportion. It is all very satisfactory, and Sted and presented at the McCarran hearing in Phoenix. Here is comment of the chairman: Thank you Mr. Leech, and the chairman of the committee, on behalf of the mittee, expresses the gratitude of the committee to Mr. Leech, Mr. Rose, Brooks, Mr. Tillotson, Mr. Drury, and the others who participated in the agreement. I think it is a progressive agreement and I think it will be a be to those who see fit to utilize that area. If the committee has not done anythi else since it has been in Arizona, I think we have accomplished a little somethi for the people of Arizona, in that respect. We are very happy about it. And then further: Mr. RONSTADT. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question on this agreement? Cattlegrowers Association would like to know if these permits are transferab or just for the life of the permittee. Mr. LEECH. The permits are issued by the Grazing Service and are attached · the property. There is no provision made in here of this lifetime of the permitted As I understand it, we will issue the 10-year permit, based on the property. Mr. RONSTADT. In other words, it would just be like the Grazing Service. The CHAIRMAN. Let's clarify it a little further. It is not revocable on t death of the permittee? Mr. LEECH. It will be our regular permit form. Of course, it carries a prevision that if a man loses his base property the permit is canceled. And it goes on. We were all happy about that, but I think we made one mistake later. We met with the Park Service at our board meeting at St. George, and we complimented them on their attitude and we bragged about it a little. I think that is where we made a mistake about it. Senator HATCH. Bragging about it or complimenting them about it" Mr. WOOLLEY. Call it whatever you want to. I think that word got back to the Park Service and they said, "Now, here, if those felloware satisfied, we don't want that. We have done something wrong Our policy is to shorten their life as much as possible, to get rid of them. We will give them something to worry about, and instead of giving them threescore and ten, they will live to about 20." I think it was said in one place that it took them 20 years to eliminate grazing from the Grand Canyon National Park. We finally came out with this agreement, but they disregarded that back in Chicago somewhere and got out another memorandum of agreement which is not like this at all. Senator GURNEY. Will you tell us the date of the first agreement and then the date of the other one? Mr. WOOLLEY. September 23, 1943 is the first one. I don't know the date of this here it is April 20, 1944, approved. Here it says certain things and if there is any change we are to be given 12 months' notice in writing, stating the reason for the change. Nothing was said about that here, they left off the main parts we were fighting for, and they expect us to proceed under this, and we just don't like the idea of doing it. Here is the agreement they submitted to the Senator McCarran committee, and we would like to proceed under that agreement. Senator HATCH. I would like the record to be clear here. Page 2945 of the hearings held by the subcommittee on Senate Resolution 241, August 30 and 31, 1943, the following agreement was entered into: SEPTEMBER 3, 1943. KAMŪRANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN THE REGIONAL graziers of REGIONS 12ND 3, GRAZING SERVICE; SUPERINTendent of THE BOULDER DAM NATIONAL DREATIONAL AREA, NATIONAL PARK SERVICE; BUREAU OF RECLAMATION, LDER CANYON PROJECT; AND THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE, DEPARTLENT OF THE INTERIOR, COVERING GRAZING ON THE BOULDER DAM NATIONAL REATIONAL AREA AND BOULDER CANYON NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE, XEVADA AND ARIZONA PREAMBLE a sant to the memorandum of understanding between the National Park and the Grazing Service, approved by the Secretary of the Interior on mar 20, 1940, which is designated for the purpose of coordinating range ⚫rsion with reference to livestock which graze part time in grazing districts Grazing Service regulations and part time in reservations under the juristen of the National Park Service, and particularly to section 4, which proTe for the formulation of field agreements to be entered into by local representaof the two services covering the details of such cooperation, and further att to paragraph 5, article II, of the memorandum of agreement between Bau of Reclamation and the National Park Service, approved by the wary of the Interior on October 13, 1936, under which the Boulder Dam al recreational area is developed and administered and which places rehty in the National Park Service for handling grazing on the recreational Band Whereas the Fish and Wildlife Service, Department of the Interior, having sdiction over all wildlife on a large area embraced within the confines of the der Dam national recreational area known as the Boulder Canyon National fife Refuge, is vitally interested in any grazing by domestic livestock on the refuge area, and (for the purposes of this agreement the Boulder Dam national rational area shall hereafter be designated as the recreational area, and the Bider Canyon National Wildlife Refuge shall hereafter be designated as the *; the superintendent of the recreational area shall hereafter be designated the superintendent; the director of power of the Boulder Canyon project, Birsa of Reclamation, shall hereafter be designated as the director, and refuge er of the refuge shall hereafter be designated as the manager) as further denced by the agreement between the Park Service and the Biological Survey the Fish and Wildlife Service) approved by the Secretaries of Agriculture the Interior on April 3 and May 12, 1937, respectively; and Whereas grazing supervision on the recreational area and the refuge can best te vordinated by the Grazing Service, particularly since the same stock graze part time on adjacent grazing district lands and part time on recreational and de lands; therefore it is mutually agreed that 1 The Grazing Service will supervise all grazing by domestic livestock on the vational area and refuge in the manner provided in the Taylor Grazing Act of June 28, 1934 (48 Stat. 1269), as amended, and the rules and regulations nder, commonly known as the Federal Range Code, approved September 1942, and subsequent amendments thereto, insofar as supervision of grazing in conflict with the purposes of the said recreational area and refuge where tiguous, or the recreational area where not contiguous with the refuge. 2 Grazing permits or licenses issued by the Grazing Service in accordance *ch this memorandum of understanding will carry, in addition to Grazing Service, special recreational area, or refuge provisions, as the case may be, a stipulation poding for the cancelation or modification of grazing privileges or areas on a covered by this memorandum of understanding when such lands are required higher use or for wildlife purposes. Advance written notice of 12 months be prerequisite to actual cancelation of grazing privileges, and notice of relation or modification and reasons therefor shall be given the Grazing Service in writing by either the superintendent, director, or manager when inying the refuge and by the superintendent when not involving the refuge, *h copy of such cancelation order to be provided the other agencies concerned. 1. It is mutually agreed that no refund of a grazing fee for any of such lands ved in this agreement shall be made unless application therefor is made within days after the expiration of the grazing period described in the license. The Grazing Service shall make every reasonable effort to obtain final disposition of |