Senator HATCH. It is fixed for the full term of the lease.

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; it is fixed.

Mr. SPIKES. However, I believe, in case of drought, the Comm sioner can reduce it, as it was done once before, to a cent and a h Mr. WILLIAMS. Following the depression, and during the drou years that followed, we reduced it 50 percent.

Senator HATCH. What was your authority for that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, under our law, it says the rental shall not less than 1 cent, and it has been set at 3 cents per acre through the State, and under that authority, the then Land Board, which do not now have, issued an order reducing it 50 percent, or to 1% ce per acre during the drought years.

Senator HATCH. All right, go ahead.

Mr. SPIKES. Well, the point, gentlemen, I am trying to make i cowman is a businessman, or tries to be, and should be, in order He doesn't want a 6-month agreement, or a year's agre ment, or a 2-year agreement. He wants to settle this matter perina ently, so that he can go back to his outfit and make his plans accor ingly, make his water development, make his budgets and stock I range. That is my point.

Senator HATCH. Laying aside for the moment the fastness with ti pencil, the first concern is to have it certain and determined.

Mr. SPIKES. That is right. Every rancher can't keep up with th price of stock in Kansas City. He can't figure those things and if is set and set definitely for a definite term of years, then he can home and know that it is going to be that way for a certain period. years.

Senator HATCH. That stability is worth a lot in any business.
Mr. SPIKES. I realize that.

Senator HATCH. Any questions, Senator Gurney?

Senator GURNEY. Yes, I have one. What I have in mind is askin the Forest Service to put in the record a list of permittees, so man that have permits for 50 head or less, so many a 100 head, and on uj I think we ought to have that for the record.

Senator HATCH. You mean the Grazing Service?

Senator GURNEY. I mean the Grazing Service. Excuse me.

Senator HATCH. I believe, Mr. For-ling, all that is in the hearing we held in Washington, each permittee and the number of cattle in each State.

Mr. FORSLING. Yes, the record is there for 1940. We have one for 1944.

Senator HATCH. Do you have those with you for Arizona?

Mr. FORSLING. Yes.

Senator HATCH. We won't ask you now, but later on when you testify.

Senator GURNEY. What is the largest cattleman in the State of Arizona, how many head does he run?

Mr. SPIKES. I don't have those figures. Do you mean on the public domain?

Senator GURNEY. Yes, on the public domain.

Mr. SPIKES. I am of the opinion that the director could answer that question, or Mr. Durkin. These are the barons, however, and they are in a small minority. The small operator is very much in

ority in this State. And these barons, it is not all a bed of or them. Nator GURNEY. I can see that from some of their remarks this the cost of help and feed.

SPIRES. It is not. I have been fortunate. For a number of I knew what it was to sit in an air-conditioned office in the tertime and a well steam-heated office in the winter. I knew at was to have three square meals a day, to go to work at 9 o'clock k off at 4 o'clock. I have experienced that for a good many But on the other hand, I have experienced the life of a , and they are entirely different things. There is no time alf for overtime. There is no 2 weeks' vacation or sick leave d, and as I have stated before, you are working in all types of out tailing up old cows. These men know what I mean when at tailing up old cows," and it is a hard life and it is a hard And if you think it isn't, just go out and see the hardships with the cattlemen of this State are confronted. If you would do I don't think you would be anxious to place an additional on them. Just at the present time cattle prices are good, but as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, the bubble is going to

or GURNEY. Cattle prices are good as far as the producer is med.

SHIKES. Yes.

or GURNEY. But not so good for the feeder.

SPIKES. NO. However, I sold my steers last fall at 10 cents. T-ar before I sold them at 12 cents. I personally don't show any profit today than I did before the war, due to the fact that my alhas jumped tremendously. My help is inadequate. I must Women where I once got by with one good man. Everything I stremendously out of proportion to what it was before the war. going back to low prices, and if we saddle additional burdens e cattlemen I don't see how they are going to survive, because arcely survived under the old conditions. The intent of the Grazing Act, as I understood it, was for the preservation of the domain. I understand that was the original intent of the Grazing Act, to preserve the public domain from erosion and Ting. We spent days, weeks, and months, making these allotto these different individuals on the basis of their commensurperty, and so forth, and in my district, in my county, each ee is fenced complete, with the exception of two or three, and 6 or 7 miles of fence will complete fencing of every permittee county. Every permittee has an allotment set much less than formerly. That was done to conserve the forage, to allow more so that there wouldn't be as much erosion and damage to the That has all been accomplished. But from now on, I don't st what the function of the Service will be. The original intent n acquired. Possibly some policing to see that a man doesn't more cattle than his permit calls for.

e it, the services in the future of the Grazing Service will not unless they take on fire and excess roads, soil erosion, reseedwater development-if they take on all those and other things, the Service will grow. But if they confine their operations

to strictly an administration of grazing, they won't grow. I do w to say that we like the Grazing Service, and this is the first tim have been forced to take the stand in opposition to a recommendin of the Service. I hope it never happens again. I don't like pu hearings and you don't like them. They are not healthy. T take us away from our ranches, our work, and cost us consider:: money to come up here and spend our time. It costs us considera money to attend the hearings in Washington and Salt Lake, but this case, we thought it was necessary to register an objection to t one phase of the Service. Outside of that, I have no fault to find w the Grazing Service. I like them, I have defended them, I 122 worked with them since the beginning, and it is a good service. the best service that I know of. They are doing a wonderful je They have done a wonderful job. We just hope they will keep that good work and that there will be no more public hearings.

Senator GURNEY. I want to take issue with you in your statenzi that the Senators don't like these hearings.

Mr. SPIKES. You like them; do you?

Senator GURNEY. I want to say that if we as a subcommittee, za the other Senators at other hearings, can take the story back to Wiington, the proper story, it will be the cheapest money you citize ever spent. You will get the greatest return from it, because we have to vote on whether or not the fees shall be raised. We do ha to vote on so many other things that vitally affect you, and unlewe get out here and rub elbows with you, why, we don't know jahow to vote on those things. We have to see you, and see what y are up against; see the kind of country you have, know a little b about whether you make a profit or not, in order to, with any intell gence, vote on these laws that so vitally affect the public domaiz It is exceedingly helpful for us to come out here and see the country Mr. SPIKES. I quite agree with you, Senator, and we are glad i have you with us, but would it not be better for all concerned, incluci ing the Senate and the cowmen, if everything went along satisfactoril with the permittees and Grazing Service, and the Federal Governi ment, would it not be better for all concerned if it were not necessar to hold these hearings?

Senator HATCH. I understood that was the point you were making Mr. SPIKES. That was what I was trying to say.

Senator HATCH. The necessity of the hearing is what you regret? Mr. SPIKES. In the State legislature, we held many a hearing. We feel that they are necessary, so that we might get information. We would rather it were not necessary. It takes up a lot of our time and expense, and that is the point I am trying to make. I don't know yet whether I have made it or not, but if we can get along harmoniously and everyone is happy, then it wouldn't be necessary to have hearings, Senator GURNEY. What you want to convey is motivated by desire for the continuance of the status quo, or possibly even less regulation, rather than more.

Mr. SPIKES. Yes. As I say, we like the Grazing Service, up to this point, but we don't agree with an increase in fees, as suggested in Salt Lake City, and we are here to represent the people, our constituents, the small cattlemen especially in our district. I think that is about all. Senator HATCH. Senator Willis, do you have any questions? Senator WILLIS. I think not.

HATCH. Thank you, sir. I guess, Mr. Jamison, it is about

*." a recess.

ISON. Most cattlemen, as a rule, are very peaceful. They to stand up on their hind legs and squawk. Are there any men who would like to make a statement on this matter? * you make it known?

WITH. Mr. Jamison.

JSON. Mr. Smith.

M.TH. I think we should state to the Senators that Mr. Spikes h me, and all the gentlemen and ladies present, that when-- to need hearings, we want you down here. If we don't need

WILLIS. I would like to ask Mr. Jamison a question.
HATCH. All right, sir.

WILLIS. Your suggestion was that it would be better if the he country was to get the land in private ownership, rather er public supervision.

SON. That is right.

WILLIS. That would extend the homestead provisions to like 10 sections of land.

sox. Perhaps even more.

WILLIS. That would be small?

AMISON. Yes.

WILLIS. Would you think it would be for the best interests try that we should retain-the Government should retainand oil rights that might later be developed?

SON. Yes, sir.

WILLIS. The mineral and oil rights should be preserved? SON. The mineral and oil rights should be preserved, yes, her thing I would like to say is, that if any administration is n on these public lands, for the people of Arizona, we Jope it will be done through the Division of Grazing. Our lave always been very satisfactory from our point of view, Sly, I have never had any quarrel with any member of the of the Division of Grazing. I think they are a fine bunch n. I think they have done a very fine job in a very good articularly satisfactory with the method they have used, alvisory boards. I think that has been very well done. to the idea that all lands should be privately owned in well as Indiana or Iowa or any other place, and I think ownership of land is only profitable when you have an mat, and I don't believe land should be held for speculation. "at the user of the land is the man that should own it, as far I don't have anything further to say.

HATCH. I wanted to inquire if Mr. Willis of Lakeside is

TILLIS. Of Showlow.

HATCH. Showlow. All right, Mr. Willis; you be back this and we will take up your matter.

WILLIS. At what time?

HATCH. 1:30. There may be some others who want to

TILLIS. We would like to go back tonight, if we could.

443-pt. 16—3

Senator HATCH. We will get to you. I wanted to be sure were here. Is Mr. Peek here?

Mr. PEEK. Right here.

Senator HATCH. I understand you want to have a little time? Mr. PEEK. I can take mine up after the cattlemen get through: Senator HATCH. All right. You be around and be ready to it up. And Mr. Jackson, you have another matter to take up? Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Senator HATCH. And this afternoon, also, I think Mr. For will have a statement to make, and I am sure you gentlemen want to hear what he has to say. So we will now take a recess u 1:30.

Thereupon a recess was taken until 1:30 p. m. this day.

AFTERNOON SESSION

Senator HATCH. The committee will come to order.

Mr. Forsling, are you ready to proceed?
Mr. FORSLING. Yes, sir; I think so.

STATEMENT OF C. L. FORSLING, DIRECTOR OF GRAZING.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Senator HATCH. Mr. Forsling, state your name and official t for the record and then just proceed and tell us what you want to Mr. FORSLING. C. L. Forsling, Director of Grazing. I guess t covers my title.

Senator HATCH. Mr. Forsling, you testified before our commit in Washington at the hearings that were held there.

Mr. FORSLING. Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, on January 22 and: I testified at considerable length, as to the reasons and methods us. and so forth, in arriving at a proposal with reference to an increa in grazing fees, and I think the copies of those hearings have be pretty well distributed, so unless there are some specific questic on what was said then, Mr. Chairman, I won't repeat at this tir Or, if there are any questions from among the members of the sto men here, that they would like to ask me, I would be very glad attempt to answer.

With reference to the testimony this morning, I thought it was very fair, temperate presentation of this whole question. There n a number of things that I might fill in, little gaps here and there fro the questions, that were not answered this morning, which I would 1 expected to have the information on. I might say, in general, that am very glad the Senate Committee on Public Lands and Surveys holding these hearings in the West; because it will provide a opportunity to get the views of the people in a way that perhaps w couldn't have gotten any other way. With reference to the grazin fees, or the proposal that I made at Salt Lake City, that was not cut-and-dried or frozen proposal. It was a proposal thrown out, target to shoot at and evoke discussions, and to get the view points c all concerned relative to what the fees should be.

I look upon my job here as Director of Grazing to be that of ac ministering or carrying out the Taylor Grazing Act. Our charte or the instructions under which we operate, is the act itself and th