Java Colony and the East Indies colonies of Holland, that would fly the Dutch flag, so you would say for boats owned in Java that they couldn't come to the United States with seamen from Java, because they happened to be flying the Dutch flag, and they would be flying the Dutch flag.

Mr. Box. I think that a boat owned in Java, under the flag of Holland would have a crew of their own people.

Mr. BEAMAN. Well, the Dutch East Indian Co., for example, has a good many boats.

Mr. Box. Well, that may be true.

Mr. BEAMAN. The Royal Dutch Shell, for instance, the oil tankers, coming over.

Mr. FURUSETH. Well, they don't carry Japanese at all; they carry Chinese.

Mr. BEAMAN. Some of them carry Malays.

Mr. FURUSETH. Very few.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we have gone pretty far on that subject. Mr. SABATH. If the foreign ships, flying foreign flags, are permitted to employ these $5-a-month seamen, whether Chinese or others, can the ships flying the American flag, who must comply with the La Follette bill, compete with these foreign ships in business?

Mr. FURUSETH. I don't see how they could, on account of the overhead charges.

Mr. SABATH. They can't compete with them.

Mr. FURUSETH. Why no.

Mr. SABATH. Then, if we insert this provision where we would eliminate this extremely cheap Chinese labor on the foreign ships, we would be in much better position, wouldn't we?

Mr. FURUSETH. I think American shipping would be helped considerably.

Mr. BEAMAN. As I understand it, we are writing an immigration law, and not a shipping law. My only objections were raised, because I didn't want to have anything jeopardize the passage of an immigration act.

Mr. FURUSETH. German sailors are now receiving $2.25 per month. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hurley, would you rather have an immigration act or a seaman's act?

Mr. HURLEY. Why, I am absolutely in favor of an immigration act; that is what I am here for.

Mr. SABATH. Every immigration act has a provision with regard to alien seamen, and we are dealing with that situation now. Personally I don't care, but I was very strongly impressed with the plea made this morning, and I didn't understand the question until this morning the question raised by Mr. Furuseth.

Mr. Box. Mr. Hurley, tell the committee, from your knowledge and information, as to the quantity or number of seamen that come into the United States and remain here.

Mr. HURLEY. Well, that would be a difficult question to answer in a sentence. I have figured the percentage of those who desert, and then remain here unlawfully as 25 per cent, but other people tell me that is entirely too low, and that it should be 45 or 50 per cent, but I estimate 25. I made a careful and exhaustive investigation at the Port of New York in November, last year, and here are the figures furnished me by the various consuls general, representing the lead

ing maritime nations of the world. The figures are not entirely correct, but they are approximately so, because it would take too much time to check them up: The consulate of Germany informed me that 8,000 Germans deserted during the period beginning January 1, and ending October 31, 1923; United Kingdom, same period, 7,280; Italy, 3,000; Netherlands, 1,400; Denmark, 1,000; secretary of Norwegian consulate, 1,000; consulate general of Spain, 399; consulate general of France, 250; making a total of 22,329 for the first 10 months of the past calander year.

Mr. Box. How about Chinese and Japanese?

Mr. HURLEY. I have no figures relating to Chinese and Japanese; that would be taken care of in another report. The Chinese, mostly, would be handled through the British consul general, and the consul was too busy, the day I was there, and I didn't get that information. The consulate general of Greece informed me that all Greek passenger vessels were put under the English flag last July. I called at the office of the Greek Line, and was advised by one of the clerks that the steamship Byron arrived October 1, 1923, and a total of 150 alien seamen deserted. Of this number eight were engineers.

Mr. Box. Isn't it a fact that there are supposed to be four or five thousand Japanese and Chinese?

Mr. HURLEY. Those figures are based on reports of our officers and the best available information indicates that 2,500 to 3,000 Chinese deserted in the vicinity of New York City.

The CHAIRMAN. When? For how long?

Mr. HURLEY. Why, for some past period; I couldn't say just when it was. The best available information indicates that there were between 2,500 and 3,000 deserting Chinese seamen in the vicinity of New York City. It is asserted that practically all of the said Chinese have abandoned their calling and are at present employed either by contractors on construction work or in industrial plants. Very recently 102 such seamen were found employed in various industrial plants located on Long Island, N. Y. The aliens were taken into custody under departmental warrants of arrest and within a week after their hearings had been completed at Ellis Island and forwarded to the bureau for submission to the department for appropriate action they were placed on board a vessel for deportation to China at no inconsiderable expense to the Government $165 for each oneThe CHAIRMAN. What are you reading from? Mr. HURLEY. From my report to the bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that printed?

Mr. HURLEY. No; but it is an official report.

The CHAIRMAN. An annual report?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. When is it due to be printed?

Mr. HURLEY. My report has been eliminated, but it is on record. Mr. Box. Can we have a copy?

Mr. HURLEY. I think you can have that through Mr. Husband. This is the only copy I have; it is a rough draft.

Mr. Box. Out of those 4,000 how many were deported?

Mr. HURLEY. I couldn't say.

Mr. Box. Any considerable number?

Mr. HURLEY. I have assumed from the warrants that were issued, and from the number of men that were used as strike breakers and

taken into custody in the anthracite coal region, there might have been 850-my report shows that many arrested under departmental

warrants.

Mr. Box. Of all these seamen in the United States, reported as deserted, you estimate 25 per cent remain here unlawfully? Mr. HURLEY. Oh, yes.

Mr. Box. That would be about 5,000?

Mr. HURLEY. Well, they tell me I am too low.

Mr. Box. It might be 10,000?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Mr. Box. That is only at one port?

Mr. HURLEY. That is only at one port, understand, the port of New York alone. From the report of the masters, on Form 689, for the port of New York alone, 14,734 deserted during the fiscal year

1923.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the number who deserted?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes, sir; that is the number who deserted; that is the number given by the consuls, who have a complete record of every man; that is their duty, to keep such records.

Mr. Box. Do you say the English vessels are coming in the port of New York now with Chinamen on board?

Mr. HURLEY. Why, they are coming into every port.
Mr. Box. The Chinamen come over here and desert?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes, sir. Our bonding provisions keep them on board to some extent. The department insists on that regulation being enforced notwithstanding the decisions of the courts.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will stand in recess until half past 2.

[CLERK'S NOTE.-The committee sat in executive session after recess until 5.10 p. m. January 29, 1924.]

COMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION,
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
Tuesday, February 12, 1924.

The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m., Hon. Albert Johnson (chairman) presiding.

We

The CHAIRMAN. This hearing this afternoon will be supplemental to those taken prior to the reporting of the bill H. R. 6540. have present this afternoon a man who can give us some statements in regard to conditions in Constantinople and the surrounding countries. I will ask Mr. Ringland to give his full name to the stenographer.

STATEMENT OF MR. ARTHUR C. RINGLAND, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. RINGLAND. My name is Arthur C. Ringland.
The CHAIRMAN. What is your permanent address?

Mr. RINGLAND. Montclair, N. J.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your business?

Mr. RINGLAND. Forest engineer.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand you have been several years in Constantinople.

Mr. RINGLAND. Mr. Chairman, I have been in Constantinople; I made a preliminary visit there of two weeks in the spring of 1922, and then I went there on the 2d of July, 1922, and remained until the middle of October, 1923.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you in other parts of Europe?

Mr. RINGLAND. Yes; previously to that I was in Central Europe from the time of my demobilization in the American Expeditionary Forces until the time I went to Constantinople. During the whole of that period I was engaged as a member of the American Relief Administration.

The CHAIRMAN. The American Relief Administration?

Mr. RINGLAND. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Under Secretary Hoover?

Mr. RINGLAND. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You had an opportunity, then, of studying the people and noting the desire of many peoples to leave the places where they were for the United States?

Mr. RINGLAND. Yes; our work, of course, threw us into the closest possible contact with economic and social conditions, and particularly was it possible in Constantinople to watch the operation of our immigration laws and the movement to the United States. Our work there was primarily concerned with the feeding and the evacuation of Wrangel's army, subsequent to the defeat in south Russia in 1919 and 1920.

About 200,000 of Wrangel's army, with their followers and families, were literally dumped in Constantinople. The condition there became dreadful, and it was handled in the initial year largely through the efforts of the American Red Cross, and the British and French. Subsequently, when their funds were exhausted, an agreement was entered into between the American Relief Administration and the League of Nations and the American Red Cross, looking to a liquidation of the problem, which meant the moving out of these refugees into countries where they could be self-supporting; and, of course, that brought up immediately the question of emigration from Constantinople. The greater part of those Russians have gone into the Balkan countries and to France and other European countries now, and a restricted number into the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. The number coming to the United States was restricted by the quota so allowed?

Mr. RINGLAND. Yes, sir. In Constantinople the consulate was allotted a quota of 4,000. In Constantinople at that time there were probably 30,000 Russian refugees, and that number was constantly augmented by shiploads coming down from Russia. They came down generally with preference papers, so that it was not possible to secure many visés for the United States for refugees who had been there, some of them, for three years.

The CHAIRMAN. That is to say, in addition to the 30,000 there were also many other refugees in Constantinople from Russia.

Mr. RINGLAND. I mean those of the 30,000 refugees who were the remnant of Wrangel's army were not able to be evacuated to European countries. We had, in addition to them, shiploads of people not refugees coming down from Russia, people who were destined for the United States and who had priority rights; so that very few of the

true political refugees were able to come to the United States because they were not viséed.

Mr. WHITE. And when you say those people had advance rights, you mean rights as relatives?

Mr. RINGLAND. As relatives.

The CHAIRMAN. So that the relatives who got into Constantinople from Russia secured visés which these political refugees did not?

Mr. RINGLAND. I believe that out of the 4,000 perhaps 1,800 of the political refugees who had been there as refugees did succeed in getting visés. The other 2,200 were given to those who came. immediately from Russia and were simply in transit. Of course, they had to come to Constantinople for their visés.

Mr. RAKER. How did you reckon that they had prior rights to visés over others?

Mr. RINGLAND. That was due to the present law, which permits citizens of the United States who have relatives abroad who desire to become immigrants to secure preference rights of various classes; those who are minor children, fathers, or mothers; and this, if I may express myself frankly, has been too widely stretched to include adult brothers and sisters and even fiancées. In that respect I think it was unfortunate, because there was evidence to show that many times it did not go as the law intended it should.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, what I want to learn from you is what, if anything, you know about the activities of steamship companies in efforts to get people out of that city, to get refugees who got into Constantinople out of that city, on their way to the United States. Did you see anything of that?

Mr. RINGLAND. I did, sir. That was an organized business and had all the appearance of a slave traffic to me; the traffic not only in the man himself, to take whatever money they could away from him, but their conditions of transit were horrible. I might give a little background.

A volunteer committee was organized in Constantinople, because of the deplorable conditions there, to interview these Russians, and whereas we had, of course, no official standing, we were in position to put the facts before our consuls, and that we did. We even had our own inspectors on board of some of these steamships, and had the benefit of their reports.

Now, as I saw it operate, there were at least five of these steamship companies organized to handle the immigrant traffic. These steamship companies had many subagents who would stop at nothing to get an immigrant. That went so far as falsification of papers. I will speak of one document. As you know, if you want to bring in a relative you must file an affidavit before, I believe it is, a United States Commissioner in this country; that is a citizen here. Or, it must be before someone authorized to give a legal paper; I believe it is a commissioner.

Now, those papers could be bought on the streets of Constantinople. I saw some of these, personally; and also passports.

I listened with considerable interest to the statement of Mr. Boyer. I think he was peculiarly fortunate, that he had a restricted field to operate in; but our consulate in Constantinople has been simply swamped. They have to turn out the police to get to the, offices;