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Senator will turn to the CONGRESSIONAL tailed by higher authority in the program. But when we come to look into
RECORD, I think he will find it.
Pentagon.

the facts we find that the Air Force does Mr. HENDRICKSON. It has not ap- From 1947 to 1949 the Air Force sacri- not have 27 bombsights under developpeared previously in the current debate. ficed, entirely because of lack of money, ment, but has only 5. Am I correct? Mr. HILL. No, it has not.

fully half of its research and develop- Mr. HILL, The Senator is correct. Mr. HENDRICKSON. It has not here- ment projects. The record will reveal,

ment projects. The record will reveal, Instead of having 27, we have only 5. tofore been heard in the present debate. and a sad record it is, that in this period Mr. MORSE. Am I correct, then, in

Mr. HILL. But it did appear at an- not one new aircraft or guided missile my conclusion from the premise laid other time, in another body, I may say project was initiated by the Air Force,

project was initiated by the Air Force, down by the Senator from Alabama that to my distinguished friend.

And those were the years that deter- the Under Secretary of Defense, Mr. Mr. HENDRICKSON. I thank the mined the quality of the air weapons Kyes, appears before a congressional Senator. with which we fight today.

committee and makes the statement that Mr. HILL. I am delighted to give my If in those years the Defense Depart. the Air Force has under development 27 distinguished friend from New Jersey the ment had maintained an aggressive ap

ment had maintained an aggressive ap- bombsights and leaves the critical connoinformation.

proach to airpower research and devel- tation of that statement reflecting upon In the business of building automobiles opment, we might not have found our- the deficiency of the Air Force, when the one never comes face to face with the selves in Korean combat with obsolete fact is that the Air Force has only 5 complex and difficult problems an Air piston-engine aircraft.

bombsights under development? Force faces in building for the future.

We might not have had to spend mil- Mr. HILL. That is correct. In any industry, one can allocate a lions in cash programs to modify our Mr. MORSE. If that be true, Mr. relatively small portion of the budget to jet fighters to keep pace with the ap- Kyes better be called before the approresearch and development. But a chro- pearance in Korea of the Russian-built priation committee of the Senate. Let mium-plated approach to aeronautical MIG-15 jet. Instead, we would have had me say that if I were still a member of development could be tragic indeed for vastly superior models of aircraft ready the Armed Services Committee I would our country. for production at the start of the Ko

demand that he be brought before that Compared to a modern air weapon, the rean war-models which still are some committee and have a vacuum cleaner automobile is as complicated as an egg- 2 years away from production.

put over him when he is placed on the beater.

Let us not lull ourselves to sleep in the carpet, because, if what the Senator says The new civilians in the Defense De- knowledge that we have out-fought the is true, I think it is inexcusable for a man partment may learn the difference, as MIG in Korea. Many factors are in- to give such misinformation to any conthey get deeper into the Air Force volved in that record.

volved in that record. Our experts re- gressional committee of the House or of program.

gard the MIG with respect. Even today, the Senate. But can we wait for that? Can we over 3 years after the start of Korea,

Mr. HILL. Knowing the Senator from afford to base our research and develop- we have only 1 type of plane capable of

Oregon as I do, I will say that I know ment effort in the Air Force on limited meeting the MIG.

that if he were on that committee he research and development experience

By far the most important thing is

would make an investigation. with automobiles—where the best way to that we have yet to meet the full Russian

Mr. FERGUSON. Mr. President, will make money—and incidentally the best Air Force.

the Senator from Alabama yield? way to lose a war-is to be able to sell Do we know what Russia has in the

Mr. HILL. I yield. last year's model as new. way of bombers? Do we know what it

Mr. FERGUSON. Did I correctly unThis business of maintaining qualita- may have in interceptors? Do we know

derstand the Senator to say that Mr. tive superiority in the air calls for big what it may have in other types? No; Kyes is the Under Secretary for Air? thinking, vivid imagination, and bold we do not know what sinister weapons

Mr. HILL. He is the Under Secretary action. I recall having often said that, Russia has up her sleeve, but we do know

for Defense. He is next to Secretary so far as nations and peoples are con- what she is capable of doing, and the

Wilson. cerned, the finest passage to be found in prospects are not happy to contemplate.

Mr. MORSE. That makes it worse. the Book is the one which reads, “Where We do not forget the MIG-15. We do

Mr. FERGUSON. I should like to ask there is no vision, the people perish." not forget the testimony of General

this question: Where was this testimony This Air Force research and develop- Gruenther and of General Ridgway of

given? ment program was initiated by a big the Air Force, and the kind, quality, and

Mr. HILL. It was given before a subthinker-by Gen. Hap Arnold. In the In the quantity of Russian airpower.

committee of the House Appropriations last months of World War II, General

The Under Secretary of Defense, Mr.

Committee. Arnold, with characteristic vision, called Kyes, testified before the subcommittee

Mr. FERGUSON. Has the Senator for an effort which would keep pace with of the House-just think of this, Mr.

given us the page of the testimony? the technological revolution then at President:

Mr. HILL, I do not have the page in hand.

We find 27 different bombsights being de

my notes. This revolution, as early as 1944, saw veloped in the Air Force.

Mr. FERGUSON. I should like to Germany put the first combat jet into When we look at the record we find have a page reference. the air, the first rocket plane into the the Air Force has exactly 5 bombsights Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, air, the first guided missile into the air. under development; not 27, but only 5— will the Senator from Alabama yield? America escaped the potentially dis- an error of more than 500 percent.

Mr. HILL. I yield. astrous effects of our qualitative infe- Mr. MORSE. Mr. President, will the Mr. SYMINGTON. Considering some riority in airpower—not by virtue of its Senator from Alabama yield ?

of the testimony, this is fairly good for own achievement, but only because a Mr. HILL. I yield for a question. Mr. Kyes. It is only 500 percent indictator named Hitler misjudged the Mr. MORSE. I know the Senator does correct. true nature of his military strength, not want to yield, but I do not think a Mr. FERGUSON. I do not want to be

We cannot expect that other dictators statement such as he has just made on personal. will make the same mistake. In fact, we the floor of the Senate should not be Mr. SYMINGTON. The testimony, as know that Russia has profited by the subject to cross examination. I am sure

I remember it because it was brought mistakes of Germany.

the Senator knows that I am interested to my attention-was used in the House Russia inherited, or took as war booty, only in getting the facts. But if I cor- of Representatives. One of the distina number of German experts who, in rectly understood what the Senator said, guished Members of the House used it 1945, already were 10 years ahead of he made the assertion that the Under in the RECORD in the House of RepreAmerica in guided-missile research. Secretary of Defense, Mr. Kyes, testified sentatives. I had heard about it before.

Russia has proceeded uninterrupted in that the Air Force had 27 bombsights Mr. FERGUSON. Mr. President, will her airpower research and development under development. I understand he the Senator from Alabama yield? program ever since the end of World made that comment in order to leave the Mr. HILL. I yield. War II. The research and development impression that that was a criticism of Mr. FERGUSON. Has the Senator program of our own Air Force on the the Under Secretary of Defense in refer- inquired of Mr. Kyes with reference to other hand, has been repeatedly cur- ence to the research and development his testimony?

Mr. HILL. No; I have not; but I think million for the fiscal year 1954, a reduc

million for the fiscal year 1954, a reduc- Forcè funds have been impounded beit might be well to do so.

tion of $62 million, and that reduced fore, and the Executive has refused to Mr. FERGUSON. Who later gave the figure was submitted to Congress. The spend the funds. That action has been testimony with reference to the five House reduced this lower figure to very severely criticized on the floor today. bombsights which are under develop- $440 million. The Senate Appropria- Mr. SYMINGTON. I respectfully point ment?

tions Committee reinstated the $35 mil- out to the Senator from Alabama that Mr. HILL. I checked with the Air lion cut by the House, and the bill now what the new Secretary of Defense has Force to find out how many bombsights before the Senate calls for $475 million.

before the Senate calls for $475 million. done, with complete inexperience on his were really under development, and the This amount is not enough. Security part as to the research and development information was that it was only five. forbids some details, but the $62 million program, has been exactly what was so

Mr. FERGUSON. Will the Senator cut eliminates important development heavily criticized in the past. A few say with whom he checked in the Air projects in new takeoff techniques for

projects in new takeoff techniques for weeks after he went into the Pentagon Force?

aircraft; new safety procedures apply- for the first time, he impounded large Mr. HILL. The liaison man, I believe, ing to supersonic flight; new techniques

ing to supersonic flight; new techniques sums of money from the research and is Colonel Cox.

for the assault landing of troops; new development program of the Air Force, Mr. FERGUSON. There is a Colonel approaches to steering aircraft rockets;

approaches to steering aircraft rockets; with cuts far below those which the Cox there.

new electronic aids to the close support House had made, and therefore even Mr. HILL. I checked through the of ground troops; the exploration of an further below the amount the Senate liaison officer.

unconventional and highly promising Appropriations Committee has restored. Mr. FERGUSON. I wondered whether engine design; the development of cer- Mr. HILL. The Senator is exactly cora search had really been made to ascer- tain components such as new type radio rect. He has stated the case exactly as tain the actual number of bombsights sets, instruments, landing gears, ground

sets, instruments, landing gears, ground it is. He has given facts to the Senate. under development.

handling equipment; and the elimina- I believe we should return to the $537 Mr. HILL. It is my understanding tion of a study into new techniques for million figure for Air Force research and that that is what the record shows. all-weather navigation.

development for the fiscal year 1954. It Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President,

I believe we should return to the $537 would be a wise investment. will the Senator from Alabama yield? million figure for Air Force research and But this is far from the whole story as Mr. HILL. I yield.

development for fiscal year 1954. It to what the Department of Defense has Mr. SYMINGTON. An honorable would be a wise investment.

done to airpower research and developMember of the House repeated the tes

But this is far from the whole story ment. As the Senator has said, the aptimony, and it was a matter of interest as to what the Department of Defense propriation has been cut down and im. to everyone who had an interest in the has done to air power research and de- pounded. The Department has assumed Air Force, because no one could figure velopment.

velopment. Months ago the Air Force the right to impound 25 percent, which out how 37 bombsights could be under received a directive from the Secretary

received a directive from the Secretary would reduce the figure to $365 million. development at one time. The only of Defense demanding that no more

We have had one sad experience in problem about divulging information to

than three-quarters of the approved this approach to our security. Is it necday is that everyone in the Air Force has budget estimate for research and de

essary to have another? Should not been notified not to give out any infor- velopment in the fiscal year 1954 be

Congress decide what moneys shall be mation. But this fact came out on the obligated during that period. The bal

spent for national defense? floor of the House. Some of us felt that ance of 25 percent was to be spent or

Certainly the Constitution provides it was advisable to check it. I have not not spent at his discretion.

that Congress shall make the decisions checked with the same person with whom

This cuts research and development the Senator from Alabama checked, but to $365 million, and is seriously delay

in such cases. Above all, let us get the I can report to the Senator from Mich- ing vital

vital programs throughout the facts straight. Congress and the people igan that the information I received co- United States. In effect, this represents have a right to know the truth. Let us incides exactly with the information the impounding of moneys appropriated not pile calculated risks in quality upon given to the Senator from Alabama. by Congress.

calculated risks in numbers. Mr. FERGUSON. I have never had

Mr. SYMINGTON. · Mr. President, Mr. MORSE. Mr. President, will the any of this information. I shall attempt will the Senator yield?

Senator from Alabama yield? to check the record now. I think it would Mr. HILL. I yield.

Mr. HILL. I yield. have been wise to have checked with Mr. Mr. SYMINGTON. These figures, to- Mr. MORSE. With regard to the im. Kyes as to where he had obtained the gether with the action taken with re

pounding practice, which seems to be information and how he came to have it. spect to them, are of great interest to

spect to them, are of great interest to growing at an alarming rate in the execMr. HILL. Mr. Kyes is Under Secre- me.

utive branch of the Government, does tary of Defense. Certainly when he I believe the distinguished Senator

the Senator agree with me that steps speaks, one does not check with him as from Alabama stated that the budget of

should be taken to safeguard Congress to where he obtained his information. the previous administration for research

from the practice of Government by men, He is supposed to be talking for the De- and development, one activity that many

which is developing, by requiring that partment of Defense. people believe should go on regardless

if an executive officer seeks to impound SYMINGTON. Mr. President of production, in order to maintain our will the Senator from Alabama yield? air quality as against that of the Soviet money which has been appropriated for Mr. HILL. I yield.

Communists, was cut to $475 million by a specific purpose because Congress beMr. SYMINGTON. To me, this illus- the present administration.

lieves public policy calls for its expenditration of inaccuracy is typical of infor- As I understood the Senator from Ala- ture, that officer should be required to mation that has been coming from the bama, that figure was further reduced come before Congress, or to send an Pentagon Building to Congress, and on in the House to $440 million, but was re- agent in his behalf, even if the officer which we are basing our decision with re- placed by the Senate Appropriations is the President of the United States, spect to the Air Force cut.

Committee, and raised to $475 million, if and to get the permission of Congress Mr. HILL I thank the Senator. I am correct.

for the impounding? If that is not done, Mr. President, in the defense budget Mr. HILL. The Senator is correct.

then the function of Congress to make submitted to the Congress by the present Mr. SYMINGTON. There has been a

appropriations can be defeated by the administration for the fiscal year 1954, great deal of talk today, and on previous arbitrary discretion of the executive the figure for Air Force research and de- days, especially on the other side of the

branch. velopment was $537 million. This figure aisle, about the impounding of money

Mr. HILL. Our functions can be enrepresented an orderly continuation of and the refusal of the President of the the research and development program, United States to spend money appropri- tirely vetoed, or, as the Senator from However, hardly had the new Defense ated by Congress. I believe I am correct

I believe I am correct Oregon says, defeated. I think we know civilians taken office, than the Air Force in my statement.

the Air Force budget cut was made on was directed by the new administration Mr. HILL. The Senator is exactly the basis of money and not on the basis to revise its estimate downward to $475 correct. As the Senator knows, Air of national security. I asked Secretary Wilson, when he was before the com- same room was due to appréhension with Mr. HILL. I yield, provided I do not mittee, as to who was responsible for respect to what the results might be? lose the floor. this cut. He said:

Mr. HILL. I think the Senator has Mr. SYMINGTON. I answer my disI think I had the greatest responsibility good grounds for the thought which he tinguished colleague from New Hampfor it, to be honest with that.

has just projected. We know that if shire by saying that the amount of un

there ever was a selfless, devoted, patri- expended balance at this time is approxThen he added:

otic, loyal public servant, it is Omar imately $28 billion, all of which was a The two men that had the most to do with Bradley. There is no politics in any de- part of an overall, long-term program it are waiting on either side of me. Before

cision by Omar Bradley. His decisions for purchasing airplanes on an efficient I left [for Europe], I had a conference with

are made exactly on the merits, as he basis, which has now been pretty well the President, and I told him what I thought we could do. I did not divide it up between sees them. That has always been Omar messed up. how much the cut would be for the Air Bradley. He has no campaign pledges Mr. TOBEY. My question is this. If Force or the Army or anything else.

or promises of any kind to fulfill. He there is $28,475,000,000 on hand now, un

is looking for nothing in the future. He expended, in God's name, why do we He continued:

has one purpose, and he has rendered need to make any appropriation at all We had a whole bunch of figures and we

one service, and that was to his country this year? It cannot be spent. What is were working day and night on them, and and to his country alone.

the matter with us? Are we fools? Mr. McNeil here

Mr. SYMINGTON. I thank the Sen- Kindly educate me. He is the Reserve admiral who is ator. ator. Will the Senator yield for a ques

Mr. HILL. I yield to my friend from Comptroller of the National Defense De- tion?

Missouri. partment

Mr. HILL. I yield to my friend from Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, has been through it so many times that he Missouri.

that is the greatest compliment that has is really not so bad on the figures in getting Mr. SYMINGTON. If the Chairman been paid me since I came to the Senate. them together, I don't know how he does it of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Sec- Mr. TOBEY. I mean that very humlike he does.

retary of Defense differed in their testi- bly. If we have on hand unexpended $28 Then Mr. Wilson voluntarily, and of his mony before the committees of Con- billion-plus, in Heaven's name why does own free accord, really let the rabbit out gress, is it not true that it is not only the Air Force ask for a single dollar this of the hat when he said that he was surthe right of Senators, but the duty of year?

Mr. SYMINGTON. Let me try to anprised to find that practically all the $5 Congress to find out the truth before we billion cut comes out of the Air Force. pass on what, in effect, is the security swer the Senator's question. In ther words, as the Boston Herald of the United States ?

If the Senator and I were to talk about said, Secretary Wilson shot the Air Force

Mr. HILL. I thoroughly agree with the building of a dam, and the Senator and asked questions afterward.

my friend-bearing in mind, too, that were to say to me, "How much money do Then he told us this subject was to be after this decision was made in October you want to build the dam? How much reviewed by the new Joint Chiefs of Staff 1951, by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, every do you need?” I might say, "I need when they came in in September some

90 days that decision was reviewed. $100,000,000.” The Senator might say, time. I said to him, “Now, Mr. Secre- Every time, after making a careful re- Very well. How much do you need a tary, are we going to have the 120 interim view, they reaffirmed the decision. year?” I might say, "On the basis of a wing goal?"

They reviewed it in March 1953. What 10-year program, $10 million a year." He said, "I do not know." did they say? In March of this year, The Senator might say, "All right. I

will start." I pressed him. He said, to use his the last time they were given an op

portunity to review it, they said that any The first year we agree, and $10 million exact language:

reduction in the 143 Air Force wing pro- is spent. In the second year, after It might be 120 wings, or it might be any

gram would increase the risk to our spending $5 million, the Senator might old thing.

country beyond the limits of national say, "I do not want to go ahead with the "It might be any old thing.” Mr. prudence.

program.” As a result I might complain, President, that was the spirit and Mr. TOBEY and Mr. MCCLELLAN ad- and the Senator might say, “You have method in which these Air Force reduc- dressed the Chair.

$75 million that you have not expended tions were made. That is the testimony The VICE PRESIDENT. Does the in the program, so why do you need any of Secretary Wilson.

Senator from Alabama yield; and if so, more money?" Beginning in October 1951, the Joint to whom?

Mr. TOBEY. That is a good question. Chiefs of Staff had unanimously agreed Mr. HILL. I yield to the Senator from I ask it. that the necessities of the situation and New Hampshire.

Mr. SYMINGTON. I have tried to the dangers and risks to our country Mr. TOBEY. I should like to ask just answer it. required 143 Air Force wings. There one question. How large an unexpended Mr. TOBEY. It is beyond me. I was no dissension. There were no balance is on hand in the Air Force now?

think the taxpayers want to know the cross-purposes as among the various How much is represented by unexpended answer to the question. They all believe services represented. There sat Gen- appropriations?

in national defense. But if there is $28 eral Bradley, the Chief, a great Ameri- Mr. HILL. Mr. President, when I tell billion on hand, who has the nerve to can soldier. There sat the representa- my friend that I cannot exactly answer ask for a single dollar more until that is tive of the Army, the representative of the question, I mean just that. There used up? the Navy, and the representative of the is no Member of this body whom I es- Mr. SYMINGTON. I try very hard Air Force. The Army and Navy repre- teem more highly than my friend from

not to compare services; but the dissentatives, along with General Bradley, New Hampshire. Let me say to him tinguished Senator from Michigan [Mr. agreed to the 143 wing necessity, just that what I am talking about is an ade- FERGUSON] told me on Sunday that as did the representative of the Air Force, quate defense for our country and its there was $23 billion in the Army. I

Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, will free institutions. The Senator will think today that figure is considered to the Senator yield?

agree with me, I am sure, because I be less. However, any long-term proMr. HILL. I yield to my friend from know his faith in the American people.

know his faith in the American people. gram implies automatically a great deal Missouri.

He knows that whatever is necessary to of unexpended funds. Airplanes should Mr. SYMINGTON. The Senator has produce that defense, the American be bought like battleships and carriers. been in the Senate for many years, and people will be willing to provide.

They should be bought on the basis of a has had long experience. I am quite Mr. TOBEY. I ask the Senator from long-range program.

long-range program. I respectfully say new here, so I would not know; but I was Missouri [Mr. SYMINGTON] how much of to the Senator that if we did not spend wondering if the Senator from Alabama an unexpended balance the Air Force

the money it would make no difference, felt that the inability of our side of the has now. Is not $40 billion the figure? After all, appropriations mean nothing aisle to get the Secretary of Defense · Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, to the Treasury. The only thing that and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs will the Senator from Alabama yield means anything to the Treasury is exof Staff, a great soldier, Omar Bradley, to me so that I may answer the ques- penditures. from the good State of Missouri, in the tion?

Mr. TOBEY. Yes.

Mr. SYMINGTON. So if we get the gate the funds. So it was carried in the

gate the funds. So it was carried in the anything to do with contract authorizamoney and do not spend it, why worry budget as a contract authorization. tions, and in the past 3 years we have about it from the standpoint of the fiscal Mr. TOBEY. To be paid for on de- had to appropriate the money. That situation? livery.

accounts for some of the difficulty. Mr. TOBEY. What is the game? Is Mr. JACKSON. It is exactly the same Mr. HILL. That is correct. In the it to give the aircraft-building companies now, except that we stop the practice old days, before the House took the pocontracts years ahead?

of not carrying the dollars in the budget, sition it takes now, if it cost $250 milMr. SYMINGTON. If we have con- which does not portray the true budg- lion to build a certain airplane, but tracts for 5 years, the situation can be etary picture, because we must pay for if only $50 million would be needed durbetter organized and the program can

the contract authorizations with dollars ing the current fiscal year, Congress be better tooled. There can be a better There can be a better at a subsequent date.

would appropriate $50 million, and give financial program. If we go into a Mr. TOBEY. The $28 billion consti- contractual authority for the additional 5-year program and then have spasmodic tutes a bookkeeping item. It is a sus- $200 million. In that case all the approduction year by year, we find that pense account; is it not?

propriation bill would show would be an that is one of the greatest reasons for Mr. JACKSON. It represents obliga- appropriation of $50 million. The House high costs and inefficiency in the Air tions. I served on the House Appropria

tions. I served on the House Appropria- having taken the position that it will Force, as the Senator from Virginia (Mr. tions Committee when we changed the not agree to any more contract authoriBYRD] pointed out.

policy. For years the money we are now zations, Congress must appropriate the Mr. TOBEY. There is something talking about the $28 billion, for ex- full amount of the contract, although very definitely wrong with the picture. ample—was not carried as it is now in that full amount may be spent over a Ask any man on Main Street. He will the budget, but appeared under another

the budget, but appeared under another period of several fiscal years. say, “They have $28 billion and they are item as “contract authorization.” To- Mr. SALTONSTALL, Mr. President, asking for more money."

day it appears as dollars, as it should will the Senator yield once more? Mr. SYMINGTON. There is some

appear. I believe the old system was Mr. HILL. I yield. thing wrong, but I do not think the misleading—and in the case of a con- Mr. SALTONSTALL. There is a great Senator from New Hampshire was on

tract authorization it should have ap- deal of merit to the position taken by the floor when I said I thought one of peared as dollars—because it represented the House, in that we now know what we the things that was wrong was the fact a direct obligation of the United States are doing. that the statement given out by the Government which would have to be Mr. HILL. We do know what we are Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, paid in another fiscal year.

doing. which goes into detail—and the Senator I believe 90 percent of our difficulty Mr. SALTONSTALL. On the other can see the statement with the approval stems from doing our business in a 12

stems from doing our business in a 12- hand, it does build up the lead time. of the chairman of the Committee on month period. I can answer the distin- Mr. HILL. There is another arguArmed Services—shows that in many guished Senator's question very simply.

guished Senator's question very simply ment in favor of the position of the categories, even in combat airplanes, the The conflict is between the fiscal year of House. By taking the position of the Soviet Union's air force, regardless of 12 months and the fact that we cannot House, we have a true picture of what money, is still ahead of the Air Force of build airplanes in 12 months. Nor can we are spending when we sign a contract, the United States and is now in a posi- we build dams within 12 months; or turn and the Government must carry out that tion to strike the United States with an out all munitions of war in 12 months. contract, but as the Senator says, the poatomic attack and has enough bombs and That is why there arises a constant sition the House has taken has necessienough bombers to do so. discussion of the subject.

tated building up the lead time, and we Mr. TOBEY. Why do we not have

Mr. HILL. Mr. President, what the appropriate money months ahead of the planes like the Soviet Union? What are Senator from Washington is saying is ab- time the money is to be expended. we waiting for? Why spend the money solutely correct. It takes 3 or 4 years to Mr. SALTONSTALL. Mr. President, and not get enough airplanes? If we

build airplanes. If the Air Force could will the Senator yield for one more spend the money and do not get the build airplanes

question? airplanes someone is negligent. We

Mr. FERGUSON. Mr. President, does Mr. HILL. I yield. should get delivery of the planes.

the Senator want the 3- or 4-year state- Mr. SALTONSTALL. On the airMr. SYMINGTON. During the past 5 ment to stand on the RECORD?

planes on which we cut down the lead

Mr. HILL. years the Air Force has received a great

Some airplanes take 3 or time, we thereby make it possible to cut deal of money, appropriated by Con4 years to build from the time they are down the appropriations, without dam

aging the program, I will say in answer gress. I believe it will interest my good started. The evidence shows that to be the fact.

to the Senator from Missouri. friend from New Hampshire to know

Mr. MAYBANK. Mr. President, will that the Army has received much more

Mr. HILL. If we cut down the lead the Senator from Alabama yield? than the Air Force.

time; and in some instances we do cut Mr. TOBEY. I am not interested in

Mr. HILL. I yield to my friend from down the lead time.

South Carolina. the Army or in the Navy or in the Air

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. President, will

Mr. MAYBANK. The President made Force particularly; I am interested in that statement at the White House when

the Senator yield? the country as a whole.

Mr. HILL. The Senator from Arkanwe were there the other day. Mr. JACKSON, Mr. MCCLELLAN, and

sas has been patiently waiting for me to

Mr. HILL. If the Air Force could yield to him. I shall yield first to my Mr. MAYBANK addressed the Chair.

make a contract for any of its airplanes friend from Arkansas. The PRESIDING OFFICER. Does the

without having the money first, the pic- Mr. MCCLELLAN. I thank the SenaSenator from Alabama yield; and if so, ture would be different. The Air Force tor. At the time the Senator yielded to to whom?

must have money from Congress, and the Senator from New HampshireMr. HILL. I promised to yield to the

that money must be spent during the Mr. HILL. That was a long time ago. Senator from Arkansas [Mr. MCCLEL- current fiscal year. It may not be spent Mr. MCCLELLAN. At the time he LAN). Does the Senator from Washing- in the second fiscal year. It may not be yielded to the distinguished Senator ton wish to ask a question on this point? spent in the third fiscal year. The Air from New Hampshire (Mr. TOBEY] he Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Force cannot make contracts until it has was discussing the 143-wing Air Force. Mr. HILL. I yield to the Senator the money.

As I understand that program had been from Washington,

Mr. SALTONSTALL and Mr. Mc- reviewed from time to time and, as I Mr. JACKSON. I may say to the dis- CLELLAN addressed the Chair.

recall, as late as March of this year. tinguished Senator from New Hampshire Mr. HILL. I promised first to yield to Mr. HILL. In March 1953 the Joint that the problem of the carryover funds my friend from Arkansas. However, I Chiefs of Staff made another review. could all be solved if we paid for the will yield to the Senator from Massachu- They had reviewed the program every planes in advance. Up until 2 years ago setts, and then I will yield to my friend 3 months. They made another review the matter was handled as a contract from Arkansas.

in March of 1953. As a result of that authorization. We did not appropriate Mr. SALTONSTALL. Without getting latest review, they declared that any rethe money. We merely authorized the into the argument, it is a fact that the duction in the program of the 143 air agency to enter into contracts to obli- House has forbidden or refuses to have wings would increase the risk to our country beyond the dictates of national us the defensive power or the striking tion? However, has not the Senator security.

power that 143 wings would have given from New York been making a speech? Mr. MCCLELLAN. Mr. President, will us.

Mr. HILL. He was asking a very long the Senator yield for another question? Mr. MCCLELLAN. Then if we reduce question, I thought. [Laughter.] Mr. HILL. I yield.

the size of the Air Force to 120 wings, Mr. LEHMAN. I began by asking, Mr. MCCLELLAN. I assume we agree so far as the record shows, we shall be "Is it not a fact?” it is the highest authority upon which reducing our national defense and our Mr. HILL. Mr. President, in answer Congress can rely. If there is any security to just that extent; is that cor- to the question of the Senator from New higher authority, I do not know about it. rect?

York, let me say that that is exactly Mr. HILL. I would say certainly it Mr. HILL. That is entirely correct. what we are doing. Instead of closing is the highest military authority, and it Mr. LEHMAN. Mr. President, will the this gap, not only are we failing to close is set up in the National Defense Act Senator from Alabama yield to me? it, but we are giving notice to the Rusas the highest military authority.

The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. PUR- sians and to the rest of the world that Mr. MCCLELLAN. I would say it is TELL in the chair). Does the Senator we are going backward instead of fornot only the highest but the most com- from Alabama yield to the Senator from ward, and that instead of narrowing

New York? petent authority within our knowledge.

the gap, we are widening it. Mr. HILL. That is correct. Mr. HILL. I yield.

Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, Mr. MCCLELLAN. As I understand Mr. LEHMAN. We have heard a great will the Senator from Alabama yield to the revised budget, and the testimony

deal about budgeting, but I believe the me for a question? of the Secretary of Defense and others time has come to talk turkey.

Mr. HILL. I yield for a question. who support it, it is actually designed Mr. HILL. That is what we have been Mr. SYMINGTON. Would not the and geared to only a 120-wing Air Force. trying to do.

Soviet Union prefer, above all other

Mr. LEHMAN. Mr. HILL. There is no question that

I agree. I am very things, to force us into a quantitative the Senator from Arkansas is absolutely glad to support the Senator from Ala- war on the ground, as opposed to a qualicorrect about that. In referring to the

bama, for, as he knows, I think he is cor- tative war in the air? interim goal after there had been a rerect at least 99 percent of the time.

Mr. HILL, The answer is that we view by the new Chiefs of Staff, the Sec

We have a Secretary of Defense whose know from the experience of Napoleon,

duty it is to submit to Congress, in conretary did not know whether it would

Hitler, and many other military leaders, nection with the defense of the Nation, that no military commander, regardless be 120 wings or any old thing.

and after careful study, scrutiny, reMr. MCCLELLAN. I should like to ask

of what his genius may have been, has search, and consultation, a budget for the another question. I shall be brief. Now

ever been able to carry on a successful Department of Defense. However, I subwe are told there is no magic in the

war of invasion of Russia. mit that the present budget has not been number 143 as applied to the wings of

Mr. SYMINGTON. Mr. President, the Air Force. That argument is made

drafted by the Secretary of Defense will the Senator from Alabama yield to

after careful scrutiny, study, research, me for another question? to us. There may not be any magic to

and consultation at all. I maintain that the figure 143, but I wish to ask the Sen

Mr. HILL. I yield for a question. this budget has been submitted to Conator, for the record, whether it is true

Mr. SYMINGTON. Is it not true that gress under instructions by the Director that the fighting power and striking of the Bureau of the Budget, who in- enced civilians who have come into the

as a result of the new group of inexperipower and defensive power that 143

structed the Secretary of Defense to re- Pentagon, this year we shall be spending wings would have given us at the time

duce the budget by $5 billion. when the 143 figure was arrived at, did

hundreds of millions of dollars more for

Mr. FERGUSON. Mr. President, will Army procurement and for ship procurehave some magic because at that time

the Senator from Alabama yield to me? 143 wings were thought to be necessary

Mr. HILL. Just a minute, please.

ment, as opposed to the appropriations for our defense?

Mr. LEHMAN.

of last year, but over $2 billion less for

Mr. President, the
Mr. HILL. That is absolutely correct.
Senator from Alabama has yielded to me.

our naval airpower and over $7,500,000,The Senator from Arkansas will recall

000 less for our Air Force power, as comThe PRESIDING OFFICER.

The that when he and I were in World War I Senate will be in order.

pared to the appropriations of last year?

The Senator we talked about firepower, and at that from Alabama has the floor.

Mr. HILL. I think the Senator from

Does he time the fundamental thesis was that

The yield; and if so, to whom?

Missouri is absolutely correct. the side having the greatest firepower

Mr. HILL. Mr. President, I yield to

143-wing figure was arrived at, after would win; that if we could put more the distinguished Senator from New

careful consideration, in October 1951, bullets on the enemy than the enemy York for a question.

by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, based on the could put on us, we would win. That was

Mr. LEHMAN. Is it not a fact that,

following four factors: First, Soviet considered a very good thesis. recognizing—as I think we have every

possession of the atom bomb; second, So it is important for us to realize that 143 wings have a great deal more

right to do, because of the testimony of the known intention of the Commusuch men as General Bradley and others there is no question about that; third,

nists to dominate the world surely firepower and constitute a much more

of our great military leaders—that we powerful destructive force than do 120 are still far behind the Russians in mili

the known commitments in Western wings. Mr. MCCLELLAN. That is the point

tary strength, and that this is the time Europe; and, fourth, the known and anfor us to catch up with the Russians, and

ticipated capability of the Soviets' longI wish to make. Is there any testimony to narrow the gap between our military

range air force. from any source that technological ad- strength and their strength-which still

Certainly every Senator knows and vances and improvements have been is very great, even in a time of such con

certainly General Gruenther, General made to such an extent that today 120

fusion as exists in the Soviet Republics Ridgway, and others of our great miliwings have the same fighting power, today; yet, instead of trying to narrow

tary leaders have warned us, that today striking power, and defense potentialithat gap, we are trying to broaden it

the military capability of the Russians ties that 143 wings had when that figure and widen it, and thus leave ourselves

is far greater than it was in 1950, when was originally agreed upon? less able to defend ourselves

the 143-wing program was agreed upon. Mr. HILL. If there is any evidence to Mr. FERGUSON. Mr. President, I

Mr. MAYBANK. Mr. President, will that effect, I have never seen it. I know rise to a point of order.

the Senator from Alabama yield to me? of no witness who has ever testified that

Mr. HILL. Mr. President

Mr. HILL. I yield for a question. at this time 120 wings would have the Mr. LEHMAN. Mr. President

Mr. MAYBANK. I wish to ask power that 143 wings would have had.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The unanimous consent that the Senator Mr. MCCLELLAN. In other words, Chair recognizes

Chair recognizes the Senator from from Alabama may yield to me, in order there is no evidence to show that today Michigan (Mr. FERGUSON] to state the

Michigan (Mr. FERGUSON] to state the that I may submit an amendment. 120 wings would give us the same defense point of order.

Mr. HILL. Mr. President, I ask that 143 wings were designed to give us?

Mr. FERGUSON. Mr. President, I unanimous consent that I may yield for Mr. HILL. There is no such evidence propound a parliamentary inquiry, that purpose, without losing the floor. at all. I know of no evidence to the effect based on a point of order: Did not the The PRESIDING OFFICER Is that 120 wings at this time would give Senator from Alabama yield for a ques

Senator from Alabama yield for a ques- there objection? The Chair hears none,

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