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Fhidat, July 7, 1882.

Under the Bankruptcy Act, 1869.

Creditors must forward their proofs of debts to the Registrar.

To Surrender in Londou.

Arnold, Single, Wilmington st, Wilmington &q, Goldsmith. Pet July 1. Hazlitt. July 21 at 11.30

Bishop, Robert, Warwick st, Pimlico, Advertising Agont. Pet July 4. Hazlitt. July 21 at 12.30

Bosher, Thomas, and Thomas Henry Bosher, Houndsditch, Fancy Warehousemen.

Cred July 5. Murray. July 28 at 11 Chetwynd, Hon Richard Walter, Jermyn st, St James'. Pet July 4. Hazlitt. July 21

at 12

Ellis, J., Plaistow, Essex, Builder. Pet July 5. Brougham. July 28 at 11.30
Hawkins, Henry, Old Kent rd, Miller. Pet July 5. Brougham. July 28 at 12
Torry, Harold J. B., Basinghall Bt, Estate Agent. Pet July 3. Pepys. July 19 at 12.30

To Surrender in the Country. Carey, Arthur, Rochford, Essex, Engineer. Pet July 3~ Gepp. Chelmsford, July 20 at 11

Duncan, Francis John, Birkenhead, Chester, Beorhouse Keeper. Pet July 3. Williams.

Birkenhead, July 18 at 11 Foakes. Edward Thomas, Great Dunmow, Essox. Pet July 3. Gepp. Chelmsford,

July 20 at 11

Masters, Alfred William, Birmingham, Wine and Bear Retailer. Pet July 4. Parry.

Birmingham, July 19 at 2 Wilde, Wilfred, Bradford, York, Travelling Draper. Pet July 4. Lee. Bradford, July

18 at 12

Tcbsdat, July 11,18S2.
Under the Bankruptcy Act, 1869.
Creditors must forward their proofs of debts to the Registrar.
To Surrender in London.
Sea, William Cutforth, Rural grove, Kennington, Livery Stable Keeper. Pet July 5.

Brougham July 26 at 12.30
Thomson, George, Billiter sq, Ship Owner. Pet July 6. Hazlitt. July 26 at 12

To Surrender in the Country.
Jenkins, Charles, St Issells, Pembroke, Baker. Pet July 7. Parry. Pembroke Dock,
July 24 at 12

Jenner, Henry James, Wiveliscombe, Somerset, Grocer. Pet July 8. Meyler. Taunton, July 22 at 11

Memmott, Walter George, Sheffield, Electro-Plate Manufacturer. Pet July 6. Wake. Sheffield, July 26 at 1

McFarland, David, Liverpool, Grocer. Pet July 7. Bellringer. Liverpool, July 24 at 12

Rees, Benjamin, Penrhiewtyn, Neath, Glamorgan, Carpenter. Pet July 5. Jones. Neath, July 28 at 3

Trim, Alfred, Wbitwell, Isle of Wight, Miller. Pet Julv 5. Blake. Newport, July 29 at 12

Friday, July 7, 1882.
Boon, James William, Okehampton, Devon. July 5

Tuesday, July 11, 1882.
Collinson, George Young, East Winch Hall, Norfolk, Gent. July 4.
Smith, James, Batley, York, out of business. July 6

Liquidations by Arrangement.

Friday, July 7, 1882.

Allfree, William, Bolsover, Derby, Miner. July 25 at 3 at office of Lees, Seyern chbrs,
Middle pavement, Nottingham

Arthur. George Thomas, Red Lion ct. Fleet st, Licensed Victualler. July 21 at 3 at office of Godfrey, South Bq, Gray's inn

Ashcroft, James, Tyldesley cum Shakerley, General Dealer. July 26 at 3 at Mitre Hotel, Cathedral Gates, Manchester. Whowell, Bolton

Ayrton, Thomas, Marton, Skipton, York, Farmer. July 19 at 2.30 at Ship Hotel, Skipton. Berry and Robinson, Bradford

Bailey, Walter, Fareham, Hants, Licensed Victualler. July 19 at 3 at offices of King, North st, Portsea

Benjamin, Samuel Edward, Ramsgate, Kent, Commission Agent. Aug 1 at 11 at the George and Dragon Hotel, George st, Ramsgate. Godden, New inn, Strand

Brid, Philip, Pensnett Stafford, Lincensed Victualler. July 18 at 3 at office of Waldron, High st, Brierley hill

Bland, W illiain Mountain, Darlington, Durham, Journeyman Tailor. Aug 1 at 3 at

office of Wilkes and Wilkes, Northgate, Darlington Bowler, Henry, Reading, Cattle Dealer. July 18 at 3 at office of Beale and Martin,

London st, Reading

Bovton, Morris, Minories, Tea Dealer. July 18 at 3 at Arthur st East, King William st. Tamplin and Co, Fenchurch st

Brooker, Joseph, and Joseph John Brooker, Southampton st, Camberwell, Corn Merchants. July 20 at 3 at Masons' Hall Tavern, Masons' avenue, Basinghall st. Fowler and Co, Borough High Bt, Southwark

Chase, Cornelius William, Birmingham, Fine Art Dealer. July 17 at 3 at office of Thomas, Waterloo st, Birmingham

Church, Charles Thonms, Lausanne rd. Queen's rd, Peckham, Stock Broker. July 20 at 2.30 at 88, Gracechurch st. Chandler, Bishopsgate Bt Within

Collins, William, Leeds, out of business. July 18 at 3 at Law lustitute, Leeds. Wright, Selby

Cooban, Haliburton, Liverpool, Corn Broker. July 21 at 3 at office of Jackson, Dale st,

Liverpool. Masseyand Co, Liverpool Cooke, George, Bewdley, Worcester, Licensed Victualler. July 20 at 12 at Bank bldgs,

Kidderminster. Crcwther and Prior, Kidderminster Cooper, Sarah, Birmingham, Licensed Victualler. July 18 at 3 at office of Freeman,

Colmore row, Birmingham Curlett, Catherine, Wrexham, Straw Worker. July 28 at 11 at office of Sherratt, Central

chbrs, South Castle st, Liverpool Cuthbertson, Frederick, Sheffield, Provision Dealer. July 18 at 3 at office of Watson

and Co, Bank st, Sheffield Davies, Henry William, York st, Westminster, Cooper. July 18 at 3 at 11, Ironmonger

lane. Cheapside. Kisbey, Cheapside Davies, Sarah Ann, Manchester, Temperance Hotel Keeper. July 20 at 3 at office of

El toft, King st, Manchester Diegler, John Thomas, Water lane, Homerton, Baker. July 15 at 12 at office of Curtis,

Union ct. Old Bro:id Bt Dobson, Shaw, Altrincham, Chester, Butcher. July 21 at 3 at office of Booth, John

William st, Huddersfield Downes, Annie, and Lucy Dowes, Macclesfield, Grocers. July 19 at 3 at offices of

Barclay and Henatock, Exchange chmbrs, Macclesfield

Egerton, Alfred, Manchester, Fish Salesman. July 25 at 11 atoffice of Leyland, Mosloy st, Manchester

Eve'rard, Fmncis, Upper st, Islington, Music Seller. July 19 at 3 at offices of Cooper

and Co, Lincoln's inn fields Ferriman, George, Abingdon, Berks, Tobacconist. July 20 nt 12 at Qneen's Hotel,

Abingdon. Scdgetield and Pryce, Abingdon Fiddies, Robert, Wakefield, Innkeeper. July 21 at 3 at Georgo Hotel, Wakefield.

Barker, Leeds

ForhLsber, Joseph, Thornhill, York, Grocer. July 21 at 3 at office of Learoyd and Co,

Buxton rd, Uuddersfield Gladstone, David, Stratford, Coal Merchant. July 20 at 2 at office of Smart and Co,

Cannon st. Harcourt, Moortrate st Glencross, Richard, Tenby, Pembroke, Coachbuilder. July 27 at 12 at 2, Water et,

Pemhroke Dock. Brown, Pembroke Dock Guy, Peter (and not Grey, as previously advertised), Pendleton, near Manchester, Boot

Dealer. July 11 at 2.30 at the Bell Hotel, Huniberstono gate, Leicester. Farrington,


Hardy, John, Curtain rd, Shoreditch, Upholsterer. July 17 at 4 at the Masons* Hall

Tavern, Basinghall st. Wenn, Bell yard. Temple bar Harmsworth, Henry, Chichester, Sussex, Innkeeper. July 21 at 2 at offices of Gregory,

East st, Chichester

Harris, William Thomas, Llanedy, Carmarthen, Grocer. July 21 at 11 at offices of

Howell, Stepney st, Llanelly Harrison, Edwin Lowe, Wellington, Salop, Tobacconist. July 20 at 12 at Chapel

House, Wellington. Bidlake, Wellington Hass, Elizabeth, Moss Hass, and Aaron Hass, Charlotte st, New rd, Whitechapel, Tin

Plate Workers. July 21 at 1 at offices of Wright and Law, High Holborn Herou, Robert Charlton, Middlesborough, York, Merchant Tailor. July 26 at 11.30 at

offices of Wilkes and Wilkes, Zetland rd, Middlesborough Holder, John Grimel, Worcester, Licensed Victualler. July 19 at 12 at offices of

Williams, Worcester chmbrs, Pierpomt st, Worcester Holding, William, Wellington, Salop, Baker. July 20 at 11 at offices of Carrane, Walker

et, Wellington

Holman, Henrv Guy, Ore, near Hastings, Sussex, Baker. July 26 at 11 at the Guildhall

Tavern, London. Langham, Hastings Holmes, Arcber, Shrewsbury, Salop, Innkeeper. July 20 at 12.30 at the Brunswick

Hotel, Piccadilly. Edwards Hook, John, Canning Town, Essex, Builder. July 18 at 3 at offices of Noton, Lombard


Huprhes, Ann, Bilston, Stafford, Licensed Victualler. July 20 at 11 at Globe Hotel,

Mount Pleasant, Bilston. Bowen, Bilston Johnson, William. Nottingham, Eating house Keeper. July 28 at 3 at offices of Fraser,

St John's chambers, Bridlesmith gate, Nottingham Tohnston, Sophia, Liverpool, out of business. July 18 at 11 at offices of Killey, Lord

st, Liverpool

Jones, John William, Llanelly, Carmarthen, Innkeeper. July 21 at 11 at offices of

Randell, Frederick st, Llanelly Jones, William, Gillingham, Kent, Builder. July 19 at 3 at Bull Hotel, High st,

Rochester. Prall, Rochester Kay, Mary, Otley, York, Grocer. July 20 at 11 at offices of Wells, Cookridge st, Leeds Keppler, Albert, Robert st, Chelsea, Baker. July 18 at 2 at offices of Brown, Basing

hail st

Kerr, Thomas, Lea Bridge corner, Clapton, Boot and Shoo Manufacturer. July 21 at 3

at (-ffices of Maude, Great Winchester st bldgs King, All>ert William, Newhaven, Sussex, Builder. July 20 at 12 at Bear Hotel, Lowes Loman, Lewin David, New North id, Trimming Manufacturer. July 21 at 3 at offices

of Goldberg and Langdon, West st Mann, Edward Joseph. Gossett Bt, Bothnal Green, Oilman. July 14 at 11 at offices of

Holmes, Finsbury pavement. Parke, Warwick ct, Gray's inn Manning, George, Surrey tor, Camberwell, Foreman to a Timber Merchant. July 20 at

3 at offices of Foster, Birchin lane Marner, Edward Goodwin, Coleman st, Auctioneer. July 26 at 3 at office of Stokes,

Chancery lane

Matthews, Emanuel, Birmingham, Painter. July 17 at 12 at Woolpack Hotel, Moor st,

Birmingham. Harris, Birmingham Mealing, Sidney England, Bath, Somerset, Builder. July 21 at 11 at office of Clark,

Union st, Bath

Myers, Morris, Cannon st rd, Commercial rd East, Boot and Shoe Manufacturer. July

11 at 11 at office of Dobson, Minories

O'Connor, Charles, Kingsthorpe, Northampton, Shoe Manufacturer. July 21 at 11 at Plough Hotet, Bridge st. Jeffery, Northampton

Owston, William Slater, Lincoln, Farmer. July 22 at 10.15 at Central Sale Rooms, Midland Insurance bldgs, Bank st, Lincoln. Toynboe and « o, Lincoln

Patrick, William, Woking station, Surrey, Stonemason. July 21 at 12 at County and Borough Halls. Geach, Guildford

Pearless, Thomas, Newport, Isle of Wight, Baker. July 25 at 3 at Warburton's Hotel, Newport. Hooper, Newport

Pollock, Joseph Alexander. Stulbridge, Dorset. Travelling Draper. July 11 at 11 at Railway Hotel, Temple Combo, Somerset. Balch, Bniton

Porter, John, Hulme, Lancaster, Grocer. July 21 at 3 at office of Oram and Co, Manchester

Ramsay, William, Plumtreect, Farringdon Bt, Glass Manufacturer. July 20 at 2 at 7G

Coleman st, in lieu of the day originally named Rixom, William (and not Rixon, as erroneously printed in last Onzpffr), King st East,

Hammersmith, Coach Builder. July 18 at 2 at offices of Truetitt and Gane, Bishops.

gate st Without

Roberts, Thomas William, Treorky, Glamorgan, Shoemaker. July 20 at 11.30 at offices

of Morgan, Mill st, Pontypridd Roberts, William, Castleford, York, Fishmonger. July 21 at 11 at offices of Phillips,

Carlton st, Castleford

Rockley, Charles, Nottingham, Joiner. July 21 at 11 at offices of Maples and McCraith,

Low pavement, Nottingham Rosenthall, Lewin Arthur, Fitcher's ct, Noble st, Trimming Manufacturer. July 25 at

3 at offices of Goldtwrg and LauKdon, West st, Finsbury circus Rotton, Hammond, Chester rd, near Erdingtou, Warwick, out of business. July 15 at

10.15 at offices of East, Temple st, Birmingham Sankoy, Isaac, Widncs, Lancaster, Licensed Victualler. July 20 at 3 at Grosvenor

Hotel, Victoria rd. Bcasley, Widnes Schubert, Gustav, Aldersgato st, Importer of Fancy Goods. July 25 at 2 at offices of

Suramerhays, Old Broad st Phillito, George, Leeds, Painter. July 20 at 3 at offices of Wells, Cookridge st, Leeds Silkstone, John, Parkgate. near Rotherham, York, Minor. July 19 at 3 ut offices of

Badgers and Co, Muorgate st, Rotherham Smith, Charles, Denton, Lancaster, Felt Hat Manufacturer. July 20 at 3 at Merchants'

Hotel, Oldham st, Manchester. Drinkwater, Hyde Steele, Henry Joseph, Leeds, Maltster. Julv 19 at 3 at office of Hardcastlo and Barnfather, Calverley chmbrs, Victoria sq, Leeds. Hopps and Bedford, Leeds Steeves, Gilbert Martin, Gorham Dyer Steeves, and James Thomas Steoves, Liverpool,

Shipowners. July 19 at 3 at Law Association Rooms, Cook st, Liverpool. Bateson

and Co, Liverpool

Stokes, William. East Ham, Essex, Builder. July 25 at 11 at office of Ratcliff, Bishopgate st Within

Swaithes, James, Hereford, Baker. July 18 at 1 at office of Corner, High Town, Heroford

Tattersfiold, James Walker, Ravensthorpe, York, Woollen Manufacturer. July 24 at

12 at Royal Hotel, Market pi, Dewsbnry. Learoyd and Co, Huddersflcld

Temple, Wilson, and William Jackson Richardson, Leeds, Boot Makers. July 20 at 11 at office of Hardcastle and Barafather, Victoria t»q, Leeds. Lodge and Rhodes, Leeds

Tilley, Augustus, Wotton-under-Edge, Gloucester, Furniture Dealer. July 18 at 12 at

George and Railway Hotel, Bristol. Blake, Wotton-under-Edge Tomkins, William, Leicester, Hosier. July 24 at 3 at office of Hincks, Bowling Greon st,


Tnbb, Isaac Henry, Beckcnham, China Warehouseman. July 25 at 3 at Masons'Hall

Tavern. Basingball st. Gregory. Corporation chmbrs, Guildhall yard Tucker, Eli, Upper Wanborough, "Wilts, Publican. July 21 at 11 at office of Boodle,

Albion bldgs, New Swindon Turner, William Watlinpr, Norwich, Confectioner. July 15 at 1.30 at office of Burton,

Queen st, Norwich. Kent, Norwich Tuson, Charles, Commercial rd, Limehouse, Printer. July 17 at 2 at office of llorphott,

Coleman st. Dear, Gresham st Walker, William, Leicester, out of business. July 19 at 12 at office of Curtis, Halford

at, Leicester

Wilson, John Bartholomew, Bethnal Green rd, Boot and Shoe Manufacturer. July 17 at

2 at office of Tripp, Catherine st. Strand Wilton, Joseph, Swansea, Glamorgan, Provision Merchant. July 19 at 2 ab office of

Tribe and Co, High st, Newport. Glascodine and Co, Swansea Winter, Thomas, Manchester, Provision and Corn Dealer. July 19 at 12 at office of

Fnrrarand Hall, Fountain st, Manchester Woltmann, Carl, Hove, Sussex, Boarding house Keeper. July 28 at 3 at Markwell's

Hotel, Brighton. Hewitt, Nicholas lane Wood, Fdwin, Yarpole, Hereford, Grocer. July 18 at 2.30 at office of Moore, Corn Bq,


Wood, Tray ton. Upland tor, Upland rd, East Dulwich, Butcher, July 21 at3 at office of

Cooper and Co, Lincoln's inn fields Wright, Josiah Moggs, Ely, Cambridge, Surveyor's Assistant. July 25 at 11 at Lion . Hotel, Petty Cury, Cambridge. Challinore and Co, Leek Turpdat, July 11, 1882. Adams, William, Portsea, Hants, Tailor. July 28 at 12 at 145, Cheapside. Blake and Reed, Portsea

Adameon, Thomas, Darlington, Clerk. July 20 at 1 at office of Chartres and Co,

Grainger st West, Newcastle upon Tyne. Barron, Darlington Ainsworth, John Peachey, Pimlico rd, Belgravia, Cheesemonger. July 24 at 3 at office

of Rawlings, Walbrook Angus, James, Walker, Northumberland, Builder. July 21 at 11 at office of Johnston,

Mosley st, Newcastle npon-Tyne Archer,'Charles Balfour, Oswald pi, Lower Edmonton, Coal and Coke Merchant. July

28 at 2.30 at office of Rumney, Walbrook Austen, Ambrose, Barcombe, Sussex, Butcher. July 24 at 12.30 at Star Hotel, Lewes.

Maynard, Brighton

Becker, Jacob, Pennyfielda, Poplar, Baker. July 28 at 4,30 at office of Sydney, Guildhall chbrs, Basinghall st

Bird, Thomas, West Bromwich, Bootmaker. July 21 at 11 at office of Travis, Church lane, Tipton

Bottoms, Henry, Luton, Builder. July 18 at 2 at office of Ewen and Roberts, Chancery lane

Broomfield, Willett, Bournemouth, Modeller. July 2g at 1 at office of Wade. Old Christchurch rd, Bournemouth

Burchnall, Mary Ann, Braunstone, Leicester, Farmer. July 27 at 12 at office of Harris, Friar lane, Leicester

Camden, Alfred, Long lane, Bermondsey, Undertaker. July 19 at 3 at office of Chipperfield, Trinity st, Southwark

Candy, William Marshall, Watling st, Foreitrn Merchant. July 27 at 2 at City Terminus How, Cannon st. Rooks and Co, King st, Cheapside

Chisell, Mary Jane, Tavistock, Devon. Hotel. July 21 at 1 at offices of Square and Co, Bank of England chmbrs, Plymouth

Church, Rueben, Netteswell, near Harlow, Essex, Farmer. July 24 at 2 at offices of Willi*, Charles sq, Hoxton

Clee, Alfred, Birmingham, Boot and Shoe Dealer. July 21 at 3 at offices of Jaques, Temple row, Birmingham

Coleby, Thomas, Manchester, Tarn Agent. July 25 at 3 at offices of Boote and Edgar,

Booth st, Manchester

Crow, James, Greenwich, Kent, Fishmonger. July 20 at 2 at offices of Grout, Saint

Swithin's lane

Darnell. William, Henry, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Draper. July 21 at 2 atofflcesof Stan-
ford, Collingwood st, Newcastle
Davies, Alfred James, Brighton, Hatter. July 25 at 12 at offices of Edmonds and Co,

Cheapside. Lamb and Evctt, Brighton
Davis, John, Lower Kennington lane, Lambeth, Wholesale Oilman. July 20 at 3 at

offices of Cooper and Co, Lincoln's inn fields
Davis, William, Morpeth st, Bethnal Green, Baker. July 23 at 4 at 4 at offices of

Sydney, Guildhall chmbrs, Basinghall st De Wolf, John Starr, Liverpool, Shipowner. July 25 at 4.30 at Law Association Rooms,

Cook st, Liverpool. Bateson, Liverpool Douglass, William, Ebcheater, Durham, Grocer. July 25 at 1.30 at offices of Holmes

and Robaon, Pilgrim at, Newcastle-upon-Tyne Ekins, Alfred, Wisbech, Cambridge, Slate Merchant. July 24 at 1.30 at Gt Northern

Hotel, Peterborough. OUard, Wisbech Elliott, John William, Gunnersbury, Merchant's Clerk. July 24 at 10 at offices of

Dobson, Minories

Farrer, John Frampton, Calverley, York, Tanner. July 25 at 3 at Gt Northern Hotel,

Leeds. Mossman and Haley, Bradford Frank, Lazarus, Hutchinson Bt, Aldgate, Butcher. July 24 at 11 at office of Cattlin,

Wormwood st. Old Broad st Freshwater, Richard Blowfleld, St John st, Smithflcld, Paper Merchant. July 24 at 3

at offices of Chatfleld and Chatficld, Conduit ft, Regent st. Lomax, Conduit st Geary, Alfred, Bradford, out of business. July 19 at 4 at office of Hollins, Petergate,

York. Robson, Mid dies bo rough Gledhill, Alfred, Bradford, Fruit Salesman. July 21 at 11 at office of Singleton, Booth

st, Bradford

Goddard, Daniel, Tilehnrst, Berks, out of employment. July 27 at 11 at office of Newman, Friar st, Reading

Godfrey, Harry, and Robort Cooper, jun, Coventry, Trimming Manufacturers. July 24 nt 12 at offices of Dewes and Co, Hay lane, Coventry

Gould, Joseph, Leek, Stafford, Warehouseman. July 25 at 11 at Wellington Hotel, Stockport. Redfem, Leek

Gray, Daniel, Kingston on Thames, Surrey, Timber Merchant. July 27 at 2 at offico of Bradley, Murk lane

Hulliday, John, Derby, Draper. July 25 at 3 at the offices of Briggs, Amen alley, Derby

Harper, Robert Francis, Handsworth, Stafford, Wholesale Milliner. July 21 at 11 at

office of James, Temple st, Birmingham Harris, Joseph, Westminster bdgo rd, Lambeth, Draper. Aug 4 at 2 at Gray's inn so,

Holborn, Bird and Moore Hicks, Joseph, jun, Churchfleld rd, Acton, Boot and Shoo Maker. July 26 at 3 at Law

Institution, Chancery lane. Child, South so, Grav's inn Hunt, David, Lower Streatham, Surrey, Builder. July 25 at 2 at William the Fourth,

High rd, Lower Streatham. Hopkins, Walbrook Isaacs, Julius, Brighton, Sussex, Watchmaker. July 24 at 3 at office of Barnett,

Palmerston bldgs. Old Broad st Jacques, David, Oldbuxy, Worcester, Machinist. July 22 at 11 at office of Forest.

Church st, Oldbury 1 Jenkins, John, Llandovery, Carmarthen, Currier. July 25 at 10.15 at Royal Talbo

Hntel, Victoria st, Bristol. Phillips, Llanovery Jones, Willinm, and Hugh Francis Jonee, Bristol. Linen Drapers. July 21 at 12 at office

of Hudson and Co Exchange, Bristo

Kayc, Charles, Lepton, Huddersfleld, York, Innkeeper. July 25 at 11 at office of Crans

field, Ramsden st, Huddorsfield Kirby, John Malsburj*, Yardley, Gobion, Northampton, Provision Dealer. July 25 at 3

at office of Andrew, Market sq, Northampton

Kirk, Thomas Biddulph, Stamford, Civil Engineer. July 25 at 11 at Brunswick Hotel, Piccadilly, Manchester. Cooper, Congleton

Lnidlaw. Jnrmes, jun., Hyde, Chester, Draper. July 28 at 12 at offico of Bartlert, Hooles chmbrs, Bank st, Sheffield. Mellor, Shoffield

Legg, John, Leatherhead, Surrey, Grocer. July 21 at 3 at office of Palmer and Co, Railway Approach, London Bridge. Simpson and Palmer, Three Ciown sq, Southwark

Lewis, David, Llangennoch, Carmarthen, Fanner. July 27 at 4 at3, Dulais tcr, Pontar.

dulais. Thomas, Swansea Lewis, Hannaniah, Neath, Glamorgan, Grocer. July 24 at 1 at Queen's Hotel, St Mary

st, Cardiff. Brothers, Neath Lewis, James, Bucknell, Salop, Farmer. July 21 at 3 at office of Morris, Swan Hill,


Little, Joseph, Exeter, Carver. July 25 at 3 at office of Martin, Bedford circus, Exeter. Orchard, Exeter

Mclntyre, John, Kingston-on-Thames, Cement Merchant. July 31 at 2 at office of King

and Peto, Abchurch lane McKay. JoBeph, South Shields, Durham, Boot Maker. July 21 at 12 at office of Wawn

and Smith, King st. South Shields Macnnughton, Robert Cook, Liverpool, Shipowner. July 25 at 2 at office of Stone and

Co, Cook st, Liverpool Mellers, Samuel, Nottingham, Warehouseman. July 21 at 3.30 at offico of Bird, Mid die

pavement, Nottingham Milner, William, Bradford, York, Nurseryman. July 21 at 11 at office of Holmes, Bridge

st, Bradford

Murray, Richard Henry, Kingston upon Hull, Shipping Agent. July 21 at 3 at offieoof Summers, Manor st, Kingston upon Hull i

North, Joseph, Sheffield, Pattern Maker. July 26 at 3 at office of Smith and Co, Meeting-house lane, Bank st, Sheffield

Oliver, Herbert, Leeds, Grocer. July 24 at 11 at office of Harrison, East Parade, Leeds

Penn, Mary, Kirton in Lindsey, Lincoln, Chemist. July 26 at 1 at office of Freer and Co, Bigby st, Bnfrff

Povey, William, Nottingham. July 26 at 3.30 at office of Bird, Middle pavement, Nottingham

Pullin, Charles, Birmingham, Builder. July 21 at 3 at office of Hawkes and Weekes,

Temple row, Birmingham Quiuton, Joseph Lewington, Clifdon rd, Lower Clapton, out of business. July 21 at 2

at offices of Fowler, Dowgate hill Rowe, James, Wigan, Lancaster, Confectioner. July 22 at 11 at office of Scott and

Ellis, Arcade bldgs, King st, Wigan Russell, Francis David, Hastings, Sussex, Builder. July 20 at 1 at office of Jones and

Glenister, Bank bldgs, Hastings Schnoider, William, Upper Moor pk rd, Fulham, of no occupation. July 19 at S at

offico of Ody, Blackfriars rd Sheep, John, Portobello rd, Notting hill, Cheesemonger. July 20 at 3 at office* of

Willis, St Martin's ct, Leicester sq Shepherd, Thomas, Leamington Priors, Warwick, Journalist. July 20 at 3 at office* d

Overell and Son, Warwick st, Leamington Priors Shrimpton, George, Oxford, Bookseller. July 28 at 10 at offices of Druce, Wgh st,


Siever, Gustav Louis, Worcester, Artist, July 21 at 11 at offices of Williams, TCarcefter

chmbrs, Pierpoint st, Worcester Smith, James, Jubilee st, Commercial rd. Shoe Manufacturer. July 26 at 3 atofflcesof

Palmer and Smith, Charles sq, Hoxton Soman, Lewin David, New North rd. Trimming Manufacturer. July 21 at 3 at offices

of Goldberg and Langdon, West st, Finsbury circus Southern, William Henry, Stockport, Bookbinder. July 24 at 11.30 at Dog and Partridge Inn, Churchgate, Stockport. May, Macclesfield Suggott, Henry Samuel, Lower Tulso hill, Brixton, Baker. July 22 at 12 at Anderton'a

Hotel, Fleet st, Johnson, Arundel st. Strand Taten, Henry, Stoke Newington, Clerk. July 26 at 3 at offices of Peddell, Guildhall

chmbrs, Basinghall st ThompBtono, Samuel, Congleton, Chester, Innkeeper. July 26 at 11 at offices of

Cooper, Park st, Congleton Trickett, James, Sheffield, York, Spring Knifo and Razor Cutler. July 24 at 11 fit.

office of Binney and Co, Bank st, Sheffield Turner. William, Brighton, Sussex, Boot and Shoe Maker. July 31 at 3 at North Bt,

Brighton. Goodman Villiers, John Charles, Derby, Grocer. July 31 at 12 at Irongale, Derby. Potter Wnlkor, George, Wakefield, York, Common Brewer. July 24 at 11 at Boyal Howl,

Wood st, Wakefield. Wainwright and Mason, Wakefield Weicht, Adolf, Salford, Lancaster, Manufacturer of Ivory Buttons. July 25 at 3 at

office of Grundy and Co, Booth st, Manchester White, Benjamin, Chiddingiy, Sussex, Farmer. July 29 at 3 at New inn Hotel, South

st, Eastbourne. Hillman, Lewes Youatt, Alfred William, York rd, Battersea, Wheelwright. July 20 at 3 at office of

Lloyd, London wall

Young, William, Bluntisham, Huntingdon, Fanner. July 24 at 1 at Unicorn Hotel, St, Ives. Gaehes, Peterborough.

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The Solicitors' Journal.

LONDON, JULY 22, 1882.


The Council of the Incorporated Law Society preserve their vow of secrecy with regard to the draft order under the Solicitors' Remuneration Act, but rumour has it that the difficulty referred to by the chairman has reference to the question of whether, in addition to the remuneration fixed by the scale, disbursements shall be allowed. Our readers will doubtless consider that this is a matter on which a strenuous effort will be expected from the council.

In Pxtestianoe of the direction recently issued, about half-adozen actions set down in the Chancery Cause Book have been marked with the letters Q. B. At this rate there will not be a very lengthy list to transfer to the Queen's Bench Division in October. It is, however, understood that all actions in the Chancery Division remaining untried at the end of the present sittings will, if not of the class specially assigned to that Division by the 34th section of the Judicature Act, 1873, be transferred in October to the Queen's Bench Division.

One Of The Few legislative achievements of the present session will be the Settled Land Bill, which now only awaits the final stage in the House of Commons. The main object of the measure is to empower tenants for life and other limited owners, subject to certain regulations, to sell or exchange the settled land, or to grant building leases for ninety-nine years, mining leases for sixty years, and other leases for twenty-one years, of the settled land. The proceeds may either be invested on the securities mentioned in the Bill, or be applied to the discharge of incumbrances on the settled land, or in payment for any improvement authorized by the Act, or in purchase of other land, or mines convenient to be worked with the settled land, or in certain other modes specified by the Bill. But the Bill also empowers infants absolutely entitled to land to exercise the same powers as are given by it to tenants for life; and married women who are tenants for life, with the concurrence of their husbands, and committees of lunatics under an order of the jurisdiction in lunacy, are also enabled to exercise the powers of 11 tenant for life. The object, iu fact, is to remove, as far as can safely be done, the restrictions on the alienation of land arising from limited ownership or disability. The measure is not to come into operation until after the 31st of December next, and before that date we hope to lay before our readers a detailed commentary on its provisions.

It Has Been Stated with regard to the Freethinker prosecution that a second conviction under the Blasphemy Act (9 & 10 Will. 3, c. 32) has the effect of disqualifying the convicted offender for a seat in the House of Commons. "We greatly doubt whether the statute will bear such an interpretation. The words are, that upon a first conviction, the offender " shall be adjudged incapable, and disabled in law to all intents and purposes whatsoever, to have or enjoy any office or offices, employment or employments, ecclesiastical, civil, or military, or any profit or advantage appertaining to them, or any of them," and upon a second conviction he shall be " disabled to . . . be . . . capable ... to bear any office, civil or military, or benefice ecclesiastical for ever within this realm." The only difference expressed between the consequences of a first and second conviction, so far as disability for

office is concerned, is that in the one case no term of disability is mentioned, and the other, the disability is to continue for ever; the context, as it seems to us, showing that there is practically no difference at all, and that the disability is even upon a first conviction to be perpetual. But is House of Commons membership an " office," "employment," or " civil office "? We think it is not an office for many reasons, but perhaps one will suffice. In Com. Dig. tit. Officer (A.J, it is said, "The King is the fountain of all power and authority, and by his prerogative has the nomination of all officers originally." Now, the Sovereign has never nominated a member of the House of Commons. Neither can a member of the House of Commons be said to have an "employment" in the legal sense, not having an employer who has a legal right to his services for reward.

It Is Cebtainly Subpbising that nearly seven years after the coming into operation of the Judicature Act, since which time robably half a million affidavits have been filed and used in the upreme Court, any doubt should exist on the questions referred to last week by our correspondent " G. B." Since 1875 affidavits have constantly been used in the courts, the oaths to which have been administered by the commissioners at places other than their own particular " places of business" or offices. In fact, the question may be said to have been settled in principle in the late Lord Cbanwokth's time, when the Clerks of Records and Writs unsuccessfully urged upon his lordship (as Lord Chancellor) their view that the " London commissioners to administer oaths in Chancery" were limited, in the exercise of their functions, to their own particular offices. And although, since the Judicature Acts and Rules came into operation, there may not have been (as we believe there has not been) any judicial decision on the point, we, nevertheless, think that the practice which has so extensively obtained would be likely greatly to influence the court in determining the question, if raised before it; being supported therein, moreover, by the construction which the Legislature itself has already put upon it in section 74 of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) Act, 1877. But it may, perhaps, be said that the question involved in the particular point now raised is, not as to the general extent of a commissioner's jurisdiction, but as to whether he is able to exercise his functions within the precincts of a public legal department. We confess that we sec no ground for any such distinction in the matter. Section 82 of the Judicature Act, 1873, enables the commissioner to administer oaths "in all causes and matters whatsoever, which may, from time to time, be depending in the High Court of Justice, or in the Court of Appeal "—thus empowering a commissioner to "traverse (so to speak) the proceedings in all the Divisions of the Supreme Court" —in other words, to "exercise his functions, as a commissioner, co-extensivcly with the jurisdiction of the court itself" (see Braithwaitc's Oaths in the Supreme Court, 4th ed., pp. 19 and 21); consequentlyXas our correspondent " G. B." puts it), the commissioner " is empowered to take affidavits in any place where the Supreme Court has jurisdiction," that is, as well within the precincts of the offices of the court, as elsewhere within that jurisdiction; assuming, of course, that no express official prohibition as to taking affidavits within the precincts of the offices of the court has been given. We cannot concur in " G. B.'s" contention that transaction of ordinary business "as a solicitor" at a public office converts that office, even for the time being, into the solicitor's own office or place of business. But we know that oaths to affidavits intended for use, and used, in the Supreme Court and in its offices, have, times without number, been administered at places other than the commissioners' own offices or places of business— for instance, at the Law Institution; in the chambers of the ViceChancellors, and in other offices of the court; even within the

precincts of the courts themselves, whilst sitting. Nor, having regard to the varying exigencies arising in the course of professional business and work, does it appear desirable that the practice should be either prohibited or discouraged. The foregoing observations seem to us to embody the proper and convenient view of the provisions of the Judicature Acts and Rules applicable to the question, and of the practice which has arisen thereupon. "We print in another column an opinion obtained by the Council of the Incorporated Law Society from Mr. R. S. Weight, on the general subject of the powers of the commissioners, to which we may draw the attention of our readers, and which appears to be perfectly consistent with the view we have taken upon the particular question discussed above.

The Doctbine of Cumber v. Wane (3 Str. 426) has been frequently commented upon, and on every opportunity has been whittled away as much as possible. That doctrine, as our readers are aware, is that you cannot discharge a debt by the payment of a smaller sum. The recent case of Goddard v. O'Brien (L. R. 19 Q,. B. D. 37) seems almost to reduce the state of the law to an absurdity. It now stands thus: if I owe a man £10 and pay him £7 on an understanding that that is to satisfy the whole debt, nevertheless the balance remains due; but, if instead of giving him £7 I give him a cheque for £7, the whole debt will be discharged. "We are afraid the profane outsider, unfamiliar with the sacred mysteries of the law, might be led into irreverent comments if this point were explained to him. The way in which the original doctrine arose seems tolerably obvious. It is, it would appear, a result of the doctrine of our common law which made a promise nudum pactum in the absence of a consideration. Reduced to its constituent parts, the transaction by which a debt of £10 is to be liquidated by payment of £7 involves a promise or undertaking on the part of the creditor, upon payment of the £7, to give up the remainder of the debt. But inasmuch as the payment of £7 is only what the debtor is bound by law to do already, it can form no legal consideration at all for any undertaking. In truth, as it seems to us, the real question in Cumber v. Wane was whether a debt may be forgiven by word of mouth without consideration, for the payment of £7 can form no consideration. It wiped off £7 of the debt. The real question, to our mind, was whether the remaining £3 could be forgiven without consideration. The way i n which the decision in Goddard v. O'Brien steers clear of the difficulty is that the giving of the cheque may be a consideration. The law will not inquire into the value of the consideration, or whether it is a substantial equivalent. The obligation is to pay in money, but if by agreement a negotiable security is substituted, it is clear that there is a legal consideration. In other words, the case is not one of payment, but of accord and satisfaction. But although a theoretical reason may be given, the state of the law is hardly satisfactory. It seems to us to be a question for consideration how far the doctrine by which a debt can only be released by deed is, at the present day, a sensible doctrine. A debt may be released by deed without consideration. It is clear that the whole of the law about contracts under seal is really at variance with the doctrine of nudum pactum. The old writers strive in a manner to reconcile the inconsistency by saying that a deed imports consideration, which is nonsense and untrue in fact. A considerable practical objection to making a promise without consideration legally binding arises from the danger of false allegations of such promises^ In the case of a debt, the unscrupulous debtor would not unfrequently resort to an allegation of an oral promise to forgive the debt. In the case of deeds, our ancestors said that the solemnity of affixing the seal gave rise to an irresistible inference that there was a consideration; it would seem more probable that the consideration of real weight was, that the existence of the solemn document obviated the danger above referred to. It seems to us that at the present day it is high time that a debt should be releasable by writing only, without seal. The truth is, that in early days the only distinction was between sealed document and no document at all, for people in general did not write, and executed documents by affixing their seal. For some purposes the distinction between writing under seal and not under seal may be still useful, but we cannot see why a release should at the present day require a seal.

It Is Not Often that a casus omissus detected by a court in an Act of Parliament is so speedily supplied by amending legislation as has happened in connection with Meg. v. Dyott (L. R. 7 Q. B. D. 223). It was there decided, on the 22nd of May last, that if a parish has no church or chapel there can be no valid publication of a poor rate therein, within the requirements of 17 Geo. 2, c. 3, as amended by 7 Will. 4, & 1 Vict. c. 25, and, therefore, that no poor rate can be levied in such a parish at all. On the 3rd of July the Royal Assent was given to the "Poor Rate Assessment and Collection Act, 1869, Amendment Act, 1882," 45 & 46 Vict. c. 20, (originally introduced to remedy, and now remedying, the longer slumbering grievance of outgoing occupiers first disclosed by Werburgh Overseers v. Hutchinson, L. It. 5 Ex. D. 19, and made clearer by the Court of Appeal in Hare v. Putney Overseers, L. R, 7 Q. B. D. 223); which puts the matter right by directing that in parishes in which there is no church or chapel of the parish (a Nonconformist meeting-house, it should be borne in mind, though popularly, is not legally a chapel) a poor rate shall "be deemed to have been duly published if, within fourteen days after the making of the rate, notice thereof has been given by affixing such notice in some public and conspicuous place or situation in the parish." This being a remedial Act, will no doubt be construed liberally, but what is a "public and conspicuous place" will be a question of law as well as of fact, and it will not follow as a matter of absolute certainty that the place selected by the justices as public and conspicuous will satisfy the statute. Nor, we presume, would a double publication in tiro insufficient places be legally sufficient. But we do not apprehend that any practical difficulty will arise in applying the statute.

In The Cotjbse of the argument of the Salvation Amy case last week it was suggested that possibly the police might hare been justified in interfering with a procession of Roman Catholic ecclesiastics carrying the sacred elements through the streets to a sick person, inasmuch as such a procession was said to be prohibited by statute. We have been unable to discover any Act of Parliament which quite covers such a case, although no doubt the 20th section of the Roman Catholic Relief Act (10 Geo. 4,c.7, which reproduces a part of the still unrepealed 31 Geo. 3, c. 32, s. 11) comes very near to it. That section enacts that "if any Roman Catholic ecclesiastic, or any member of any of the orders, communities, or societies'' mentioned in the statute "exercise any of the rites or ceremonies of the Roman Catholic religion, or wear the habits of his order, save within the usual places of worship of the Roman Catholic religion, or in private houses, shall, being thereof convicted by due course of law, forfeit for every such offence the sum of fifty pounds." It is very doubtful whether a mere procession of ecclesiastics, not wearing the habit of any particular order, and unaccompanied by religious service of any kind, would come within these words. And even it did, the remedy of the party grieved would surely be to proceed for the penalty, and not to disturb the procession either with the aid of the police or without it. Moreover, in the metropolis, at all events, "every person who, in any thoroughfare or public place, shall use any threatening, abusive, or insulting words or behaviour, with intent to provoke a breach of the peace, or whereby a breach of the peace may be occasioned," is by the Metropolitan Police Act (2 & 3 Vict. c. 47), s. 54, liable to a penalty of forty shillings, and also to be taken into custody without warrant, which enactment would seem to apply to the disturbers of any lawful procession whatever.

It is announced that Mr. Joseph St. John Yates, county oonrt judge o( No. 9 Circuit, has tendered his resignation to the Lord Cbanoellor. B> was appointed in 1847.

Lord Bramwell, in moving the second reading of the Bills of Exchange Bill in the House of Lords on Tuesday, aaid that although it proposed to codify the law on tbe subject he did not suppose that it would supercede UwyertM* their law books: it would still be necessary to refer to them from time to time. The object of the Bill was to alter the law as little as possible, thong? it was impossible to avoid a certain amount of alteration. For imtJnce, it was not thought right to retain the difference now existing in the date when a bill of exchange falling dne on Christmas-day or Good Friday becime payable in England and Scotland—namely, on the day before and day following, respectively. The Bill proposed the eame date for both countries.


Last week a correspondent made some remarks upon the recent case of Wigney v. Wigney (30 W. R. 722) which undoubtedly call for some notice; and especially from mortgagees who may have lent, or may be proposing to lend, money on the security of life interests taken under marriage settlements. Whatever tends to unsettle the law by substituting for it an arbitrary discretion of the judges, and whatever tends to deprive mortgagees of what used to be thought their legitimate security, deserves to be looked upon with suspicion. A case which exhibits both these tendencies has a double claim to our attention.

Judicial discretion tends to increase, partly through well-meant but ill-judged efforts after an ideally equitable canon, and partly by the undesigned freaks of legislative blundering. The present case presents the novel and interesting peculiarity, that we are uncertain to which of these two causes we ought to refer the increment contributed by it to the existing stock of judicial discretion. A husband took, under a marriage settlement, a life interest in a part of his wife's property, with an ultimate trust in his favour. After the husband had incumbered his life interest, the parties were divorced a vinculo matrimonii, upon the ground of the husband's adultery and cruelty; and the wife applied for an order extinguishing the husband's interest under the settlement. The President of the Probate and Divorce Division ordered that, the wife undertaking to discharge the incumbrances, the trustees should hold the property as if the husband had died in his wife's lifetime, and freed from the ultimate trust in his favour. From this order an appeal was brought by the husband; and it then appeared that, besides the incumbrances, the husband was liable for some simple contract debts incurred in the joint housekeeping before the divorce. The main question turned upon the construction to be put upon one, if not two, of those ornaments of legislation which occur so abundantly in modern Acts of Parliament. The first is the 22 & 23 Vict. c. 61, s. 5 :—

"The court after a final decree . . . may inquire into the existence of ante-nuptial or poet-nuptial settlements made on the parties whose marriage is the subject of the decree, and may make soon orders with reference to the application of the whole or a portion of the property settled either for the benefit of the children of the marriage, or of their respective parents, as to the court shall seem fit."

Much consideration is due to people who are forced to find a meaning for this ambiguous jargon. It contains nothing to restrict its operation to settlements made by the parties to the marriage, except such inference as may be drawn from the epithets "antenuptial" and " post-nuptial"; and this is so vague that it might be thought to be rebutted by the contrary influence of the very odd phrase which we have put in italics. Nor do we understand how children of the marriage can be said to have "respective parents," unless the draftsman thought that children have only one parent apiece—daughters probably deriving their sex from the mother, and sons from the father. This not being obscure enough, a further touch was added by the 41 Vict. c. 19, s. 3:—

"The court may exeroise the powers vested in it by the provisions of Pwjhod fire of the" 22 & 23 Viot. 0. 61, "notwithstanding that there are no children of the marriage."

The reader's first thought will probably be, that, if there are no children, then there cannot be any "respective parents "; so that, nobody existing for whose benefit an order can be made, the power to make orders is either defunct or nugatory. Something like this seems to have passed through the subtle mind of the Master of the Rolls; but he bravely resisted the insidious suggestion, coming to the conclusion that the section gives "an absolute discretion to the court—of course, a judicial discretion." So that we (and our correspondent) must take that point, at least, as settled; though, as was before observed, we are not quite clear to which source the increment of judicial discretion must be referred. And the court affirmed the President's order, subject to an inquiry as to the amount of the simple contract debts, which the court thought should be provided for, besides the incumbrances, out of the husband's life estate.

The decision seems to have proceeded upon the well-known ground of refusing to interfere with an exercise of judicial discre

tion (which, as we have seen, is, in this case, an "absolute discretion "), in the absence of proof that there has been a gross miscarriage. The judges found, not only no gross miscarriage, but nothing unreasonable in what had been done. "The court," said the Master of the Rolls, meaning thereby Sir James Hannen, "has allowed the mortgages which the husband "created on his life interest to remain; but beyond that it has destroyed his interest under the settlement." But we find nothing to show that, if the court below had not" allowed the mortgages to remain," the court above would have considered this to be such a gross miscarriage as to justify their interference. That is to say, it appears that mortgages of this description will, in future, under similar circumstances, depend for their validity upon the discretion of the President of the Divorce Court; and, though we have the fullest confidence in Sir James Hannen's discretion, there is something in this substitution of an appeal to a statutory discretion in the place of a common law right ex debito justitiaj, which we find ourselves not able to contemplate with unmixed satisfaction.

Moreover, if the grounds upon which the Court of Appeal seem to have exercised their judicial discretion in admitting the simple contract debts, is to be taken as a guide for the future exercise of judicial discretion in admitting mortgage debts, the consequences are likely to be much more serious. "He incurred those debts," said the Master of the Rolls, "for the expenses of the joint establishment of himself and his wife. . . . Would it be right that the wife, who has had the benefit of the expenditure, should not pay for it?" We greatly fear that not all transactions coming under these principles could stand this test. When a dissolute husband raises money by mortgage of his life interest there is so far from being any presumption that he means to spend it upon the "joint establishment of himself and his wife," that the circumstances rather indicate what the Conveyancing Act styles a "contrary intention." And we draw the inference, that it may perhaps be expedient for persons proposing to lend money upon such security, to add to their "usual inquiries" an inquiry into the moral character of the proposed mortgagor.


The somewhat conflicting and confusing decisions which have been given by the Court of Appeal and the Chief Judge in Bankruptcy upon the question of the registration of resolutions for liquidation of the affairs of a debtor whose assets are trivial, or for the acceptance of a small composition in such a case, have caused some degree of bewilderment to those members of the profession whose duty it has been to advise in such cases, and the recent decision of the Court of Appeal in Ex parte Ball (ante, p. 509), whilst overruling some previous decisions of the Chief Judge, does not render much assistance in the matter, but rather, to our mind, makes the point more difficult than ever. The court in its anxiety to uphold the machinery of the bankruptcy laws from abuse has introduced principles which do not appear to be expressly provided for by the Act, and it is only as those principles come to be applied in other and somewhat different cases that the difficulties of such a course become apparent. We propose to review the various cases upon the point down to the last case of Ex parte Ball, with a view of setting before our readers the present position of the law upon the point, and of extracting therefrom for future guidance such lessons in practice as they suggest to our mind.

The point, so far as the reported cases go, appears to have been first taken in Ex parte Russell, Re Russell (23 W. R. 817, L. R. 10 Ch. 255), before the Court of Appeal. In that case the liabilities proveable amounted to over £50,000 and the assets to £1,934—made up of book debts, £350; bills and securities, £1,334; and surplus from secured creditors, £250. The debtor was also in receipt of half-pay as a retired colonel. The creditors resolved upon liquidation and granted the debtor an immediate discharge. They also resolved that the debtor should pay to the trustee all his income over £600 per annum. There were other facts in the case, but they do not affect the point we are discuss

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