428. The whole thing has all been done underhand?—Yes.

429. It is rather demoralising to everybody, is it not?—It is.

430. What happens after the race is over? The bookmaker has collected his slips for the particular day's betting; what happens then; what is his course of business? Then he would retire to some place to make up the slips.

431. Do you mean to say he separates the slips for each race?-The losing slips from the winning slips.

432. That is, after the race is over?Yes, and then he would make up a paying-out slip.

433. That was a playing-out slip you handed to me just now?—Yes, but that is not the paying-out slip in connection with this charge.

434. No, it is another one, but it shows the way it is done. He strikes out those that have lost and puts in those that have won? No, pardon me; those that are struck out are what he has paid. Those are the winners for the preceding day.

435. I understand this is a slip that the bookmaker keeps for his own information ?-Yes.

436. It says, "Howard, £1; Dan, 13s.; C. W., £1 2s. 6d.; G. T. R., 68."; and then there is Com., 10s."-Yes.

66

437. Some are struck out. If he meets

Dan, 13s.," for instance, and he pays it, he strikes out the 13s. ?—Yes.

438. And when he meets "C. W." and pays £1 2s. 6d. he strikes that out?-Yes. 439. What does "Com " mean at the end? That, I take it, relates to another bet.

440. I thought, perhaps, it might be some commission. Then, I suppose, in case of any disputes he keeps the slips till it is all seen to be settled up squarely, and then he destroys the slips?-Yes.

441. Can you give us any idea of the extent of this betting in the streets?Well, there is a great deal of it going on. Notwithstanding the difficulties we had to contend with during last year, that is, 1922, there were 60 persons charged with frequenting or loitering for the purpose of receiving bets in the streets of the City of London.

442. Those are the people you caught? -Yes. Six were discharged, and 54 were fined sums varying from £1 5s. to £30, the total fines amounting to £623. During the present year to date the number similarly charged has been 42, of whom one was discharged, one sent to

[Continued.

prison, and 40 fined varying amounts from £1 10s. to £20, totalling £448 10s.

443. You told me that it is quite beyond the power of the police to administer this Act effectively. These are the cases where you have been able to catch anybody?— Yes.

444. Will you tell me what proportion of the time of the police is taken up in watching the streets for this purpose?— Well, it is difficult. We have to spend a lot of time watching street bookmakers.

445. Yes, I know you have.-And not always with success.

446. That is what I understand; it is very difficult to catch them ?-It is.

447. Because there are so many touts, and so many people. Everybody knowsboth the backer and the other person?Yes, and the customer is on the look-out for the police and warns the bookmaker accordingly.

448. There is a conspiracy by everybody to keep clear of the police and to warn each other?-In connection with betting, yes.

449. I am only speaking of betting?Yes.

450. I wanted to know whether you could give the Committe any information as to the extent of this betting that takes place. The only thing that shows us at present is that in one case 288 slips were found on one man in the street?-Yes. In this other case there were 59.

451. Was he a tout, or was he a principal?-He was one of the agents. This man was arrested at 1.5 in the day. 452. Is that the 59?-Yes. He was arrested at 1.5 in the afternoon, and the first race was at 12.45, so he could not have been very long on the pitch. Of course, he had not nearly collected, I suggest, all that he wanted to collect had it not been for him being arrested. Mr. Forestier-Walker. 453. You arrested him too soon?—Yes, we had him too soon.

Chairman.

454. How wide will his perambulations extend; will it be one street?-Either one street, or just round a block of buildings. There are so many small blocks of buildings in the City that they never make it a practice to be on a fixed point.

455. About how long a walk would he take? Well, this man, I suppose, would take about 50 to 100 yards.

456. That is all? Yes.

457. And he got 59 slips in a very short time? Yes. It would be within a small

area so that the customers would know within reason where he could be picked

up.

458. Is it the habit for this particular man to go to the same place every day? -Well, yes, he would to carry on his business.

459. And all the people who bet would know him?—Yes.

460. Do they know the time, about, that he is there, and then do they leave their work and come out and hand their slips to him? Yes. During the luncheon hour, of course, say from 12 to 2, is the busiest betting time so far as the street bookmaker is concerned, because all the employers are out to lunch in the City.

461. Could you tell the Committee at all how many bookmakers you have in the City? I am afraid I could not. There are probably a number in the City that the police know nothing of.

Mr. Forestier-Walker.] When you ask that question do you mean street bookmakers?

Chairman.

462. All these questions that I have been putting recently are asked with regard to street bookmakers?—Yes.

463. Could you give us any information as to the number of street bookmakers; you say you cannot ?-There are a large number, as the arrests will show.

464. Could you tell us how many of these people that are agents or touts there are under your jurisdiction in the City ?No, I could not.

465. Have not you got it from the Police officer to give the Committee information? What we want to get at is the extent of this going on?-Well, it is going on, no doubt, to a very big extent. By the records I could see how many bookmakers have been arrested.

466. These words that you use, big extent," are relative terms?—Yes.

467. If a man walks round one block of buildings only to an extent of about 100 to 150 yards and can fill up his time there taking bets, does that mean that a large proportion of the employees in that block of buildings are betting?—Yes.

468. Is the habit of betting with these street bookmakers prevalent amongst all classes in the City?—Yes.

469. All employees, I take it?—Yes. 470. More particuarly people working for weekly wages, clerks, and otherwise; is that it? Yes.

471. The richer man, I take it, would bet by telephone, or telegram, with the bookmaker?-Yes, he would do credit bet

ting.

[Continued.

472. The artisan, or the clerk, would bet with the street bookmaker ?-Yes.

473. If you took a block of buildings perambulated by one of these touts, or agents, could you tell us at all what proportion of the men who are employed there in the various industries that are being carried on were betting?—No, I am afraid I could not tell you how many persons are employed in a particular block of buildings.

474. No; I am asking the proportion. Could you tell us is it customary or not, if you have a number of men employed in one particular business, to have your bets collected by one of the employees and put on collectively? Yes, that is frequently done.

475. Would they hand in one slip for the whole lot, or a number of slips?—One slip.

476. When you see a number of horses' names with various bets on the one slip does that represent bets collected from one particular place by one man?—Yes, I would suggest how that is done. (Document handed to Chairman).

477. This is a slip marked at the bottom "Alby 24s. 5d." and it is ruled off after each line. "28. 6d. each way Knock Andu, 5s. Od. 1s. Od. each way D'Orsay, 2s. Od. 2s. Od. each way Twelve Pointer, 48. Od. 2s. Od. each way Ellangowan, 4s. Od. 6d. each way Holy Friar, 1s. Od. 1s. Od. each way Vain Percy, 2s. Od. 1s. Od. each way Mousetrap, 2s. Od. 6d. each way Papyrus, 1s. Od. 2s. 6d., 3, 2, 1, double. Vain Percy 2s. 6d. Twelve Pointer. 1s. Od., 3, 2, 1, double Vain Percy 1s. Od. Ellangowan ls. Od." You suggest that that has been made out in some works, or some shop or office, on behalf of a number of employees there who are having that money on ?— Yes.

478. Again I will put the general question can you give the Committee more information as to the extent to which this habit of betting with a street bookmaker is prevalent amongst the employees of the various industries that are carried on in the City ?-Yes; there is considerable street betting going on in the City.

479. You have told us it is so great that the Police cannot control it; I can understand that.-Yes, owing to the difficulties that I have pointed out.

480. Is it increasing ?-I would not say that.

481. Are women taking to it? No, women betting has not come under our notice.

10 May, 1923.]

[Continued.

482. You have not had that before you? -No.

483. Is there much betting by people under 21 years of age?—No.

484. In your opinion not?-No. 485. Then there is not much by people under 16 years of age?—No, that has not come under our notice at all, under 16.

486. I did ask you whether you could tell us anything about the amount of time occupied by the Police?-Well, there is considerable time spent in observation.

487. Are there special officers directed towards looking after street betting?At times the detective officers. Of course, it is the duty of the uniform officer to arrest if he sees an offence committed, but the detective officers in the City are instructed to pay special attention where it is known that a bookmaker frequents. On other occasions there are special officers sent out to prevent or detect this.

488. I take it a constable in uniform has not much chance of catching either the bookmaker or his tout or the backer? -No; he has not so much chance as a man in plain clothes.

489. Every day are there detectives told off on this job?-There are detectives out. Their general instructions are to pay special attention to where it is known that bookmakers frequent, and at other times there are special officers sent out by myself to try and deal with this mat

ter.

490. What proportion of the detective force's time is occupied in looking after street betting in the City of London?— That is a very difficult question to answer.

491. Of course, you cannot give us exact figures I do not suggest that. May I put it a little simpler. I understood from what you told us that none of the street betting, or practically none, goes on after 7 or 8 o'clock. Should I be right in saying that it does not go on after the last race is run? That is so.

492. That would be about 5?—Yes. 493. Is that the right time?-About 5; sometimes the last race is earlier than that.

494. At about 4 or 5 o'clock? Yes. 495. What time does it begin?-About 12.30, 12.45, or 1 o'clock, the first race, according to the meeting.

496. Surely the betting would start earlier than that? Would not the betting start as soon as the racing papers came out? No. It is my experience that the average street bookmaker does not get

499. In the City?—Yes.

500. I notice when I walk about London early in the morning- at least reasonably early, between 9.30 and 10 numbers of people coming out from their work to buy the early editions of racing papers that come out?-Yes; they study them during the morning.

501. And when they put the money on and the times that the bookmaker would be there are known? Yes.

Sir Leonard Brassey.] The backer hands this slip with the money surreptitiously to the bookmaker in the street, trusting to the bookmaker's honour, which according to the witness is seldom misplaced; but the bookmaker does not lay him any price, I understand; he is betting on what they call starting price.

Chairman.

502. It is all starting price?—Yes. Sir Leonard Brassey.

503. That is to say, he settles by the starting price given in one of the leading sporting papers?—According to his particular rule.

504. He does not lay a price with the man in the street?-No, unless, of course, there is a special request.

Chairman.

505. Is the bulk of it starting price betting? Yes.

506. Then they have rules that are known; some of them may vary a little, I gather? Yes, they do.

507. But they all act according to their rule? Yes.

508. If the betting begins a little before 12 and goes on to about 4 to 5 o'clock, could you tell us what proportion of your detective force between those hours is used in looking after street bookmaking? -Well, all those not otherwise engaged would be paying attention to that. Of course, there would be some of the detective officers engaged at Police Courts or the Central Criminal Court, or perhaps in making enquiries regarding a crime. They would not be available to pay attention, but the remainder of the Division would be paying attention amongst other things to such places.

509. You put the whole of them on?Yes, and I frequently detail special officers.

510. You are the Head of the detective force there, are you?-Yes. I select my own officers and instruct them where to go, and so on.

511. That is the best you can tell us so as to get the proportion of the detectives' time that is taken up in looking after this class of work?-Yes.

512. Could you tell me, does the street bookmaking being carried on in this surreptitious way with all these subterfuges you have been telling us about lead to corruption in the Police Force itself at all, do you think?-No.

513. You think there is nothing of that? No.

Sir George Hamilton.

514. By that do you mean the plain clothes force or the whole force?—I speak on behalf of the uniform as well as the detective department.

Chairman.

515. You see the bookmakeer is carrying on an extremely lucrative business apparently; he can pay all these touts to work for him; he pays their fines and he has these outlookers to see that the Police are not following him; does not he offer inducements to some of these officers to let him carry on this business ?-No. 516. You think that is not given at all? -No.

517. I am asked to ask you during what time of the year does the street bookmaker's business continue; is it all the year?-Yes; street bookmakers continue all the year, but to a greater extent during the flat racing season.

518. The flat racing season begins about March, does it not?-Yes.

519. And continues to November?Yes.

520. And the steeplechase season?Afterwards during the winter months.

521. Well, it begins in November and goes on till about June, does it not?— Yes.

522. Are there races every day? Nearly every day during the flat racing season, but that is not so during the winter.

523. Not during the jumping season, at Is the bookmaker always there any rate. or only on race days?-Only on race days.

Mr. Gershom Stewart.

524. Might I ask with regard to theso bets, are they just on these races on the particular day?—Yes.

525. They do not bet on future races? Can a man in the street not go and back a horse in the Derby to-day, or is it only

[Continued.

on the race to be run to-day?—He would not give a slip and money in this way if he was having a bet on the Derby.

526. Then they are mostly for the races on the actual day?—Yes.

527. I do not know if I am right in asking this, but how many plain clothes policemen have you got, and do you change them about, or do these touts know them all?-No, because I select men from other Divisions to go to another part of the City. They may get a knowledge of the detective officers that are on duty in their own particular Division; they may after a time get a knowledge of them, but to do away with that I send them from one Division to another.

528. You change them round?—Yes. 529. Could not these touts get photographs of these men and pass them about to each other, so that they know the plain clothes men as well as the uniform men ?---No.

530. You do not think so?-No. They might get a knowledge of an officer who has made himself particularly active in this line; they might make it their business to get a knowledge of him.

Sir Beddoe Rees.

531. You told us that you thought. street betting was not on the increase; you thought it was about stationary?— Yes.

532. I see the convictions this year are very much higher than they were last year? Yes.

533. Can you tell us why?—Yes. Last year we placed in certain districts uniform men specially where a bookmaker was known to work, or it was suggested that a bookmaker was working, so as to prevent him carrying on his business. This year that method has not been used at all; I am dealing with it in a different way altogether.

534. And as a consequence you are having a larger number of convictions?— Yes. Of course, it is the duty of the police to prevent as well as to detect crime.

535. Well, yes, but are you not going the other way round; you are getting more convictions ?-Well, we tried the prevention last year, and it does not seem to have had a very good effect.

536. You are trying convictions this time? I think it is important that we should try to find out the percentage. Last year, in a full year you had 60 persons; what percentage would that be of the whole? You have told us you can

540. Would you tell us whether, in the opinion of the police, street betting is carried on to such an extent as to make it an evil or very undesirable?—Yes.

541. In the view of the police it is not a good thing? It is not.

542. Is the present method of betting in any shape or form a danger to the public? Does it lead to a breach of the peace?-No, I cannot say that it leads to breaches of the peace; but it is certainly not desirable that street bookmakers should have any authority to use the streets.

543. And if there is any alteration to be made in the law, you still think that street betting is undesirable?-Certainly; I think if it were permitted in the streets the evils would be greater even than they are now.

544. And in your opinion bookmakers should be licensed? Not to carry on their business in the street

545. I see; you confine it to "in the street". You would have no objection to bookmakers being licensed provided it is confined to office betting?-If they conformed to proper regulations.

546. I see a note here that bookmakers should certainly not be licensed or have any colour of authority to bet in the streets? That is so.

547. You confine it to that, I take it? -Yes.

Lord Stanley.

548. Is there any street betting on football? It is the exception in the City rather than the rule-very, very little.

[Continued

549. When there is betting on football how do they do it?-By means of

coupons.

550. How do they get a price for that? -That is usually on the back of the coupon. A particular bookmaker has his own prices, and his prices are on the back of the coupon.

551. They generally take not a single match, but a combination of matches?That is so.

552. But there is very little in London ? -Very little in the City.

Chairman.

553. Is not the coupon betting on football illegal?—Yes.

Sir George Hamilton.

554. Have you from your experience any knowledge of how the City of London compares with other districts of London with regard to street betting?-No.

555. Or other districts of the country? -No.

556. Without knowledge can you give us your own personal estimate as to what you think in other Police districts; is there more betting in the City where the occupants are chiefly clerks than there is in a factory district, or the other way about?-No; I should think the betting from that point of view is about an average a fair average over the country.

557. Neither more nor less?-I do not think it goes on more in the City than enywhere else. Of the reason course, probably we get a larger amount of it is because our area is so small and the daily population is so large. There is a large number of people in a small area.

Mr. Morgan Jones.

558. In the last paragraph but one of your statement, you say: "Bookmakers should certainly not be licensed or have any colour of authority to bet in the streets, otherwise obstruction and annoyance and other evil results will follow." What other evil results have you in your mind? It will be an inducement for young people and women to bet if they can go with impunity to a bookmaker and put their money on, and then it is likely that disputes would arise, and therefore breaches of the peace would occur.

559. In regard to the influence of the racing newspapers on betting, do you find that there is a great demand for racing papers in the City at mid-day?-There is a demand; I should not say great.

560. Would you say that racing tips in the newspapers have a great influence in