Mrs. BENETEAU. I certainly would advise and I'm in no position to advise Senator Kennedy but Senator KENNEDY. I'll take this advice, and any other that you have to give. Mrs. BENETEAU. I certainly would-I have a daughter living in Michigan and I know what a hardship it is for her. Senator KENNEDY. Well, I think that's important too. OK. We have the next family who is Mr. and Mrs. Charles Beach of Grand Rapids, Mich., and Mrs. Lillian Koscis from Windsor, Ontario. Mrs. Koscis, would you raise your hand and Mr. and Mrs. Beach, if you would raise your hands. Now, Mr. Beach, as I understand it, you're retired from the Penn Central Railroad, is that correct? STATEMENT OF CHARLES BEACH, GRAND RAPIDS, MICH.; AND LILLIAN KOSCIS, WINDSOR, ONTARIO Mr. BEACH. That is correct. Senator KENNEDY. And how long did you work there and what kind of income did you have? Mr. BEACH. I worked as a conductor for the railroad for 24 years. Senator KENNEDY. Just bring that mike up a little, and then Mrs. Beach had some medical problems about 3 years ago. Can you describe what happened? Mr. BEACH. She had bowel problems in 1975, I believe it was. Mr. BEACH. She needed surgery which was done at Grand Rapids Osteopathic Hospital. They operated two different times and in February of 1976, around the 20th, they sent her home in worse condition than what she was in when we put her in with bowels coming out of her sides, and then on the 1st of March, I took her to Mayo Clinic, in Rochester, Minn., and in 3 weeks they sent her home in a cured condition. Senator KENNEDY. Now, how much did the insurance company pay for you with the two hospitalizations? Mr. BEACH. The insurance company paid approximately $32,000 to Grand Rapids Osteopathic Hospital and they paid approximately $4,500 to Mayo Clinic. The doctor bills and so forth brought it up to a total of around $42,000 to the osteopathic hospital or $5,032 to the Mayo Clinic. Senator KENNEDY. Now, did you owe any money? Mr. BEACH. Yes, sir, we did. Senator KENNEDY. And how much? Mr. BEACH. We paid $466 to Mayo Clinic. We paid around $1,000 to doctors in Grand Rapids and we have to sell our home to pay the osteopathic hospital. Senator KENNEDY. You mean, the hospital is still pressing you? Mr. BEACH. I have summons here that show the hospital waited until the malpractice time had run out, which we had consulted an attorney and being that she did get good care at the hospital, it wasn't— we can't say it was from negligence, but she did get good care at the hospital, so we were advised not to file a malpractice suit. Four months from the day that the malpractice suit was outlawed, we were served a summons and consequently we have to sell our home, worked 30 years to pay for the bill. which we have I have the judgments and everything in my file here. Mr. BEACH. I have no savings. Senator KENNEDY. And now you're faced with selling your home in order to pay the hospital bills? Mr. BEACH. That is correct. Senator KENNEDY. How much money is involved here? Mr. BEACH. $4,562. Senator KENNEDY. How do you feel about that kind of health care? Mr. BEACH. Well, not very good. Senator KENNEDY. Well, it's a real tragedy; it's a national disgrace that anyone who has worked as hard as you have is effectively being wiped out because of these bills Mr. BEACH. Well, when I get through paying the bills that are here, if I get $5,000 left out of the home, we're lucky, and I'm 57 years old, unable to work because of a heart attack in 1973, which the railroad put me out in January of 1974, and I'm on a fixed income. My insurance premiums for myself and my wife at the present time is $98.45 a month. Senator KENNEDY. Now this is, as I understand it, 24 years of working retired because of illness on your heart, and now, being forced to sell your home because of medical bills. Do you know we're the only country in the world that that could happen to outside of South Africa? We're the only country in the world. That's the American health care system, U.S.A. 1978, that's wrong. Mr. BEACH. Under the insurance I had with the railroad, they carried me for 3 years. I was told at the end of 3 years if I wanted to pick up the premium that insurance I could do so at a price of $125 a month for the wife and myself. That premium today if I was to carry that insurance would be $140 a month. I carry a lesser insurance for $98 a month, which I pay out of the $500 a month pension and that's kind of hard. Senator KENNEDY. So it's virtually impossible to be able to get aafford the kind of premiums to get the coverage. Mr. BEACH. I can't afford the premiums. Senator KENNEDY. People are having to make a choice, I suppose, on this. They just can't afford it. Mrs. Koscis, how old are you? Mrs. Koscis. Fifty-seven. Senator KENNEDY. You're 57, same age? Mrs. Koscis. Yes. Senator KENNEDY. As I understand it, 4 years ago you had an operation, is that right? Mrs. Koscis. A very big one. I had a colestomy and I think most. people know what that is, and I was in the hospital twice with it and come home and I never seen a bill, and since then I've had three other major operations. I just had one 3 months ago, a total knee replacement and I never seen the bill. I just happened to see the bill when I came out of the hospital, but nobody handed me one and the hospital bill alone was over $5,000. Senator KENNEDY. You mean the health insurance paid for everything? Mrs. Koscis. Everything. I never seen a bill at any time. Senator KENNEDY. Did they pay for the nurse to come to your home? Mrs. Koscis. They're paying even now. He was there this morning and they pay for the nurse to come every day. Senator KENNEDY. And the nurse came to your home and checked your bandages and you don't get any bill for that? Mrs. Koscis. Nothing. Senator KENNEDY. How about cab fare when you have to go to the clinic? Mrs. Koscis. They pay the cab fare. Senator KENNEDY. They pay the cab fare to go to the clinic? Senator KENNEDY. And all of this within a system that is spending less of their gross national product on health care then we are spending on ours, the 7 percent, 8.8 percent, paying for the cab fare, the visiting nursing services and you live on a modest Mrs. Koscis. I live on a disability pension from the shop right now. I worked in a factory. Senator KENNEDY. So both effectively have a disability, you had the disability and he had the disability, both virtually the same age, both had serious illnesses both within the family. In the United States they're having to sell their home to pay. In the other, they are having a visiting nurse and looking after your needs. Would you have been able to manage it if you hadn't had a health insurance? Mrs. Koscis. No, never. I couldn't have paid those kinds of bills. I don't have any money. I put my son through school myself and I never put any money aside, so I never had anything to pay these bills with. Senator KENNEDY. You think there's a worthwhile program for the people of Canada? Mrs. Koscis. Definitely, I don't know how they did without it. Senator KENNEDY. Well, we can't do without it here. You see what happens when they are doing without it, they're losing their homes. OK, Mr. Kovacs and Mr. Norris. I noticed that Senator Griffin is here. Bob, do you both want to come up here? You're welcome to join us here. Can we have order, please. We'll be in order. Now, Mr. Kovacs of Detroit, Mich., and Mr. Edward Norris of Windsor, Ontario. They're both retired UAW members, one from Detroit and one from Canada. Mr. Kovacs, would you tell us how old you are and where did you work? STATEMENT OF ALEX KOVACS, DETROIT, MICH.; AND EDWARD NORRIS, WINDSOR, ONTARIO Mr. KOVACS. I'm 62 years old. I worked at Dana Corp, UAW contract. Senator KENNEDY. And why did you retire at the age of 56? Mr. KOVACS. Due to illness of my wife. I decided to retire early so that I could help her out. Senator KENNEDY. What happened to your wife? Mr. KOVACS. In 1964 she had a stroke and a series of illnesses after 1964, which led to my retirement in 1972. She had-well, you know, when you have a stroke you have little problems, poor circulation and they always laid it on poor circulation and she had duodenal ulcers and a kidney infection plus-I can't think of it right now. Senator KENNEDY. Was there adequate coverage for you? Mr. KOVACS. Yes, there was. Senator KENNEDY. Now, did it cover all your needs? Mr. KOVACS. Yes. Senator KENNEDY. Did it run out at any point? Mr. KOVACS. 1974, in June of 1974 it ran out. Senator KENNEDY. Did you have to take Mrs. Kovacs out of the nursing home for 60 days? Mr. KOVACS. Yes, I did. Senator KENNEDY. Why, was this because of her condition improving or what? Mr. KOVACS. No; the UAW contract says if you are in a nursing home for 730 days, that is 2 days off for every day in the hospital and your insurance runs out. If you take them out for 60 days or more, then under your skilled care again you can readmit them and your coverage starts over again, but when I took her out for 60 days and readmitted her, they said she was basic and her coverage was canceled. Senator KENNEDY. My understanding is the reason you took her out, did it have anything to do with her medical condition or did you do it in order to conform with the policy? Mr. KOVACS. If I wouldn't have taken her out, I would have had to pay out of my own pocket. Senator KENNEDY. But taking her out was not because of her medical condition, was it, it was because you had to do it in order to qualify for the policy? Mr. KOVACS. Yes. Senator KENNEDY. All right. Now you took her out. Then what happened when you wanted to have her come back in? Mr. KOVACS. I brought her back to Allen Park Convalescent Home in September and her insurance was canceled. They said she was basic care and they fought it but they didn't get no where with Blue Cross. Senator KENNEDY. Did the people from the clinic come down and think that she ought to be back in the clinic, that they needed the additional kind of skilled trading? Mr. KOVACS. Some of them did and some of them didn't. I had some registered nurses that would go along and I don't know whether they go along with Blue Cross or whatever, but the doctors have a chart and they go by the doctor's chart. Senator KENNEDY. So then what happened, did you pay for the care after that? Mr. Kovacs. I did from June of 1974 until February of 1977 or November of 1977, I'm sorry. Senator KENNEDY. Was it back in the nursing home? Mr. KOVACS. Yes, sir. Senator KENNEDY. So she went back into the nursing home, but this time you paid for it? Mr. Kovacs. She went into three of them, Allen Park, Marian Manor and then she was in Baptist Park, where she is now. Senator KENNEDY. And you dipped into your pension checks and savings; is that correct? Mr. KOVACS. I sure did. Senator KENNEDY. What was the total cost to you? Mr. KOVACS. Approximately about $19,000. Senator KENNEDY. And is that pretty much your total savings? Mr. KOVACS. Yes, sir. I've got enough for burial and I might be able to sell my home. Senator KENNEDY. And you have medicaid, is that it? Mr. KOVACS. Well, we've got a little relief from November of 1977, we got relief as an individual person from medicaid. They take her social security check and they didn't touch my pension check, but it is not that much. I have to live on that pension check. Now, I went on social security myself as of August and I presumed they're going to dip into my social security in order to pay for my wife's care. Senator KENNEDY. Well, now would this have been different if you would have been separated? Mr. KOVACS. Yes; the reason a lot of these cases are picked up on medicaid was because there was a lot of divorces going on and people couldn t afford to pay for the care of their family and they were selling their homes and getting divorced so that they could pay for their care. Senator KENNEDY. So just so that we understand it, if you were separated or divorced, it wouldn't have wiped out your savings. But because you stay married, you had to go through all of your savings, the $19,000 worth of savings, wiped out a lifetime of savings while if you would have been separated you probably could have held on to your savings. So here is the question of whether or not you are going to be separated or divorced or stay together. People are forced to that kind of decision in order to meet their health bills. Mr. KOVACS. I have seen a number of cases happen like this in Allen Park Convalescent Home. A husband who was able to talk and sign his name signed his house over to his wife, and he was able to get medicaid on his own after he signed the home over to his wife. Senator KENEDY. It doesn't make any sense, does it. Mr. Norris, where did you work? Mr. NORRIS. Chrysler. Senator KENNEDY. Are you working with them now? Mr. NORRIS. I'm on disability pension. I anticipate going back. Senator KENNEDY. What kind of medical problems does your wife have? Mr. NORRIS. Three major back operations, one by an osteopathic surgeon, two by a neurosurgeon. The last one they drove stainless steel pins down her spine so she could walk straight. Senator KENNEDY. And how many weeks-you were in the hospital too? Mr. NORRIS. Well, I collapsed on the 22d of September 1976 but preceding that for a period of 22 or 3 years, I had a basic illness which |