cluding recreation and tourism-oriented enterprises, which help to create economic growth in rural areas. In marshaling all of these programs to spur business in particular areas, the Department is particularly concerned with how economic improvement fits with total community growth and development. We believe we have a responsibility to encourage and to promote quality growth, with detailed attention to coordinated land use planning and a special awareness of the impacts of planning activities on environmental quality. To this end we are also bringing to bear the Department's capabilities and skills in land-use planning and environmental conservation, along with our efforts to spur new business activity. This concludes my prepared statement. We will be glad to try to answer any questions you may have. Mr. HUNGATE. Thank you for a very outstanding statement, very informative and comprehensive. We appreciate it. Mr. McKevitt? Mr. McKEVITT. No questions at this time, Mr. Chairman. Mr. ROE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Do you see your operations in connection with the National Forest Service as being a great benefit to rural areas, to rural development? Dr. NELSON. Yes, sir, we do. As you know, sir, the activities on the national forests include. resources other than recreation, such as timber, wildlife, grazing, and watershed activities. Recreation, of course, is one of the major multiple uses on the 187 million acres of the National Forest System. And we do indeed feel that the recreation services are contributing greatly to rural development. Mr. ROE. Can you tell us, are you having the same problem the National Park Service is having with regard to overcrowding of your facilities? Dr. NELSON. Yes, we are. We are having overcrowding problems in many of our campgrounds. As you know, the season is short in many portions of the northern United States. And large numbers of tourists are going into these areas at one time. So, in portions of the Rocky Mountains especially we are having quite some difficulty with overcrowding. We are having to actually limit the number of people at one time in many of our campgrounds during the heavy summer season. Mr. Roe. How do you limit them? Dr. NELSON. In campgrounds? Mr. ROE. Yes. Dr. NELSON. In campgrounds, we limit by closing the campground when it reaches its capacity. We have personnel that are stationed there to do that. Mr. ROE. How do you serve campers? Do you have a reservation system, or first come first served? Dr. NELSON. We do not have a reservation system. We have a first come first served basis with a limit on the period that they can occupy a given campsite. It depends upon the particular location. I believe that about 14 days is the general limit that we allow people to Occupy a site. Mr. ROE. Could you tell us the rationale behind that? Why do you find it preferable to have first come first served with a limit on the length of stay versus other methods that might be considered? Dr. NELSON. We have and are investigating a reservation type system. We have had considerable dialogue with the Park Service on this possibility. We have about 6,800 camp and picnic grounds throughout the country. A great number of these are located in isolated areas. Many are destination stops. They are out of the path for the general traveling public, that is to say, the transient public that is moving. Many are small. And as yet, we have not been able to develop a system of reservations that would adequately serve this purpose. Now, the one place where we are closest to a reservation-type system is in the wilderness areas. We find that in some of the wildernesses, especially in the State of California, that the visitor use is so great that we have already gone to a permit system. As yet we have not liimted people from going in. But it appears that it will be necessary to go to some type of reservation system in some of our wilderness areas in the not too distant future. Mr. ROE. The camp and picnic grounds, you said, total 6,800? Mr. ROE. Are those all operated by private concessionaires, or do you operate some yourself? Dr. NELSON. No, sir; as far as concessionaire operations are concerned, we have 1,800 concessionaire operations in this country. If I might list these for you— Mr. HUNGATE. Please. Dr. NELSON. We have in our permit system for concessionaires about 16 lodges or resorts that are Forest Service constructed. We have 369 lodges or resorts on the Forest Service lands that are private. In terms of commercial services, there are 146 concessionaires. In the winter sports area-and this is primarily in the ski area— we have 206 concessionaires. We have a group of other operators of recreation sites, which includes playgrounds, boating, swimming, and campgrounds which come in this category, picnic grounds, that total to 302. And then we have about 800 outfitter guides per year. And this figures varies on the outfitters annually. And so our figures are roughly in the neighborhood of 1,800 concessionaires per year. Mr. ROE. Do you know how many of those gross less than a million a year? Dr. NELSON. I would think that most all of them gross less than a million a year. The possible exceptions Mr. ROE. They would all be small business, then? Dr. NELSON. The possible exceptions might be some of the ski permittees. Mr. LOVERIDGE. We would probably have only a half a dozen, who would gross over a million a year. Mr. ROE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. HUNGATE. I am interested in the crowded situation. We had some earlier comments from our colleague from Colorado-apparently there is just a small murmur starting about overcrowding in ski areas. And some people say, take down the welcome sign on the city limits, we have got enough people now. And we mentioned the State of Oregon. I think the Governor acquired some publicity telling people not to come to Oregon. Dr. NELSON. In the Colorado Congressman's home State, we do have one ski area where, by agreement with the permittee, with the concessionaire, we have had to limit the number of people using the ski lifts per day. I believe that is Arapahoe Basin. Mr. LOVERIDGE. Yes. Mr. HUNGATE. I notice this is not in what you administer, but a comparable problem, I think—I have a letter to the editor in one of the St. Louis papers: The Missouri Park Board announced that beginning with the 1972 season the State parks would be closed to campers once a designated number has been admitted to a specific park. That sounds to me similar to what you are discussing. Many camping families must travel late in the evening to reach their destination. And this decision of the Missouri Park Board will result in the turning away of many families who are looking forward to recreation visits to state parks. And then we get down here: The Mid-Missouri Campers Chapter of the National Campers and Hikers Association deplores the recent decision of the Missouri Park Board. Missouri ought to consider the needs of the citizen. In the absence of this consideration we feel that promotion of tourism is unjustified. So we have got a problem here of some kind which I guess is no larger than a man's hand right now. But I appreciate the fact that you are concerned with and aware of it. Dr. NELSON. This problem is greater in some portions of the country than others. For example, at the eastern entrances to Yellowstone Park, where camper facilities are operated by the Forest Service in the national forests that surround the park, we have extreme difficulty here with the crowding situation. We have to close the campgrounds in the afternoon and post signs on the highway which indicate that you have just passed the last campground in which space is open this evening. And the visitors have to move back toward Cody to find camping facilities . Mr. HUNGATE. In your estimate on page 2 about public recreation opportunities on 187 million acres of the National Forest System, how many of those areas are in Alaska? Dr. NELSON. I would have to get that for the record, sir. We have three national forests in Alaska, down in the panhandle country. I believe that it is something over 20 million acres. But if I could, sir, I would check that for the record. Mr. HUNGATE. That would be fine if you would supply that within 30 days. I think we said we would leave the record open until the 29th of March. Do you have the State by State breakdown of that? Dr. NELSON. Yes, we have State by State breakdown of national forest acreage. And I would be happy to supply that for the record, sir. Mr. HUNGATE. Would that be compiled in map form, by any chance, where you could look at a map and see where these places are in each State? Dr. NELSON. Yes, sir. Mr. HUNGATE. If you can file that it would be helpful. Dr. NELSON. We can provide both the acreage figures and a map of the national forests. And presumably you wish the national grasslands included? Mr. HUNGATE. Yes, sir. Will it be coded so that we can tell which is which? Dr. NELSON. Yes, sir. (The information follows:) |