private resort business in my part of the country that there seems to be a certain chain through which the tourists travel.

One, they start on public facilities, perhaps, with their camper, tent, or trailer, some modest kind of low cost accommodation, going to the water site, and spending sometime and enjoying the scenery. As time moves on they grow older, and presumably become more affluent, they tend to move into other kinds of accommodations. They frequently go to private resorts after they become kind of introduced to the notion that the outdoors is a beautiful place in which to spend more time. Then they kind of graduate, as they say, to private property later on as they can afford it.

Have you found that to be true with the Army's water projects? Do you have any evidence at all?

General COOPER. Our evidence indicates that the number of people coming in increases substantially every year. I don't know of any studies we have done a sampling of the people-to indicate that what you said is correct. It may be less so in our case than in other particular cases, because a lot of ours are in the Midwest where there are not that many resort areas.

Mr. CRANE. We have done no studies on the age makeup or economic makeup of the users of our projects. We have done studies on the origin, destination, and that type of thing, but not on age or economic makeup.

Mr. BERGLAND. When you refer to concessionnaires, what are they typically? What kinds of services are they rendering? Are they resorters who provide boats and motors and cabins, and so on?

General COOPER. Yes, sir-primarily food, I would think, is one of the main things, food and bait and fishing poles. They rent boats and rent trailers.

Mr. CRANE. The marina-type concession, primarily.

Mr. BERGLAND. I see.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, General.

Mr. HUNGATE. Thank you, Mr. Bergland.

I think it is commendable, as Mr. Horton indicated-it appears here that 89 percent of your awards on supply and equipment for projects go to small business. And that is the sort of thing we are interested in seeing and like to see happen.

What does it mean when we say "of the 279 individual actions"? What do we have besides individual actions? I am on page 3, line 6. General COOPER. That means primarily individual contracts, where we had contracts with people, but it might be a purchase order as opposed to a specific contract. That is the reason for that testimony. Mr. CRANE. It may also be that one individual company has received several awards. We don't want to imply that there are 279 separate businesses involved, we are not sure of the statistics in that respect.

Mr. HUNGATE. I see.

Maintenance work is something over $2 million. And these to your knowledge were all small business awards?

General COOPER. Yes, sir; those are all labor-intensive-type con

tracts.

Mr. HUNGATE. I am interested in this situation that 75 percent of the concessionnaire's return is returned to States and counties. On one project in my district-the Clarence Cannon Dam is in my area and I am starting to hear from some of the schools. As the Government takes the property, the school districts lose part of their tax base. And I am sure that if the policy is that we have good concessionnaires, and well regulated, too, but that some of the funds they generate would be returned to the States and counties, that would be very welcome, I know. Because you can appreciate the nature of the problem. They would be most anxious that-they are rather hard-pressed, I guess all schools are, and all counties and States feel that way-that their revenue base not be decreased.

I think you indicated that you had no records, probably, on the age and the type groups that were using the facilities, is that right? And we wouldn't know if we had foreign tourists or people coming over to visit them; we couldn't really tell that.

Do any of your facilities, if you know, maintain these guest registration books like you see in a lot of places? I suppose it wouldn't be a scientific sampling, but a better-than-nothing sampling could be gotten from some of these books as to where people come from.

Are you aware of any people, any particular groups that have come to visit and study your facilities, any particular ones, any unusual ones?

General COOPER. Mr. Crane says that there are a lot of Canadian tourists. But I don't think that is specifically what you are referring to. Mr. HUNGATE. I guess we would be as interested in them as anybody.

General COOPER. Most of the foreign visitors that I am thinking of are visitors from foreign countries who come to see how we operate rather as tourists to take advantage of the recreational opportunities. We will check into that and see if there is anything we can add to the record. But I am not familiar with any of the statistics.

Mr. HUNGATE. You know anybody who goes to Germany takes a tour on the Rhine. That is part of the deal. I wonder if we have anything comparable on the Mississippi or any of our rivers that you know of?

General COOPER. No, sir.

There is a separate exercise going on that Mr. Crane has been involved in where OCED is trying to gather specific data on tourism. Mr. HUNGATE. Mr. Crane, when would that study be complete, would you think?

Mr. CRANE. This is a study under the State Department, and it is primarily in support of the development of the tourist industry in Europe. And there is also a concurrent study, as you are aware, I am sure, of the tourism industry in the United States. And these are being cross-referenced.

Mr. HUNGATE. Is there a termination date or date for a report that is fixed which you know?

Mr. CRANE. I am sorry, sir, there is a termination date, but I am not aware of it.

Mr. BERGLAND. Mr. Chairman, would you yield for a question?
Mr. HUNGATE. Certainly.

Mr. BERGLAND. General, do you charge some sort of a fee for those persons who can visit one of your sites?

General COOPER. Yes, sir, depending upon the facilities. In some places we charge $2, in some places we charge $1, and in some places we charge nothing, because the facilities aren't that extensive.

Mr. BERGLAND. What are those proceeds used for?

General COOPER. Those proceeds all go back to the general. funds of the Treasury. These are not proceeds which we use for our own purposes.

Mr. BERGLAND. Is there any kind of a registration form or any kind of a tally taken as one enters one of your many facilities to determine where they are from?

General COOPER. We occasionally have done that. I don't know that we do it on every visitor. I doubt that we do.

Mr. CRANE. We do have some sampling techniques that we use on origin studies, primarily to relate to predicting the amount of use in our cost-benefit ratio studies.

General COOPER. We do keep track of how many people come into each reservior. And that is how we get our statistics on the number of people who come each year.

Mr. BERGLAND. I enjoy camping. One of the few weekends that we had last summer in which I was able to stay here we went down to the John Kerr Dam and camped. I observed there were cars there from about 35 States on that particular weekend. These were mostly family people who were just having the time of their lives, and they came to the eastern seaboard to visit the many historic points of interest, stayed out there in those facilities, because that was all they could afford. I was impressed by this, I thought it was a very worthwhile program.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HUNGATE. Thank you for your contribution, Mr. Bergland. How do you determine, in one of your facilities or reservoirs, for example, how much area is reserved for the public? Where we have the 300 feet or 300 yards belt, how much is devoted to that purpose, and how much, if any, is permitted to be leased to private concessionnaires or individuals to operate their businesses along the lake? How do you determine that? What factors enter into that?

General COOPER. Well, for each particular project it will vary, depending upon the purpose of a reservoir. If the purpose is water supply or power we then have different amounts of drawdown of the lake itself. And when you draw down the lake for the purposes of power or water supply, it usually has an adverse effect on the recreation purpose.

So, with the total purposes of the project, we then integrate the recreational aspects into it, and that determines, among other things, for example, how far down to build the concrete boat ramps. And often, if there is a year of little rain, we get in trouble with the recreation people, because when you draw the reservoir down, there are some places where mudflats are exposed. And it is not as nice a recreation area.

So, you have to consider all of these different purposes for which the project was originally built, and then try to equalize these.

Mr. HUNGATE. I guess it depends on your terrain also, in that case, doesn't it?

General COOPER. Yes, sir. We try to put facilities where they are readily accessible. I don't know of any specific regulations we have which you can only use 10 percent for boat ramps or things like that. If there are any regulations, I don't know of them.

For the most part we decentralize decisions to the District Engineer, since he knows the local requirements.

Mr. HUNGATE. And those decisions are made locally, then, at the district engineer level?

General COOPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUNGATE. Any further questions?
Counsel Roe?

Mr. ROE. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

General, as I understand it, your justifications for projects are based on a cost-benefit ratio?

General COOPER. We call it benefit-cost ratio.

Mr. ROE. Benefit-cost ratio. Could you just briefly explain that to us?

General COOPER. Basically we consider how much the total project is going to cost, including land cost, construction cost, and several other different costs. And then we try to figure out what the benefits are. In terms of flood control, for example, what damages are going to be avoided by having this flood control. We know the previous history, we know what the development of the land is, so that we can predict how much we are going to reduce the flood damages, for example. If the purpose is water supply, we make an agreement with the local people who are going to sell the water that they will pay for all the costs incident to providing the water. We do this over a period of about 50 years normally. When we compute the benefit-to-cost ratio the upper limit of the period of analysis is 100 years. We discount the benefits, depending upon when they occur in the process, because the Government has had to borrow money in most cases to construct the facilities. It is a relatively complicated process.

Mr. ROE. Does recreation figure in at all as a benefit?

General COOPER. That is correct.

But we don't justify a project just on the basis of recreation. The project is justified on an economic basis, in other words, has a benefitto-cost ratio of greater than one for each separable unit or purpose including recreation.

Mr. CRANE. Recreation is included in the straight benefit cost ratio.

General COOPER. But you can't have a project where it is uneconomic for other purposes, just economic on recreation.

Mr. CRANE. That is correct.

Mr. ROE. I see.

In talking about the recreation facilities being a benefit, do you consider the economic impact of tourists, small business, spinoffs, and the multiplier effect in an area?

General COOPER. We are restricted as to what we consider in the benefit-to-cost ratio in accordance with what we refer to as Senate

Document No. 97. There are a lot of secondary benefits we are not permitted now to include as a specific benefit.

Mr. ROE. But they are a reality?

General COOPER. That is right. And at the present time we are in the process of reviewing and perhaps revising the whole basis on which we evaluate projects.

Mr. ROE. Do you work at all with the Bureau of Outdoor Recreation?

General COOPER. We work with the Bureau of Outdoor Recreation. that is right. They have the overall responsibility—and I shouldn't speak for them—for looking at all Federal agencies with regard to recreation purposes.

Mr. ROE. They testified before us last Thursday. Are they helpful? What type of working relationship does the corps have with the BOR?

General COOPER. Well, it is a consultant type basis. They don't tell us what we can do or can't do. They advise us. I don't certainly in my position have a day-to-day relationship with them. But we do meet with them on such things as the purchase of lands that we may own that are required for parks, and things of that nature.

Mr. CRANE. We work very closely on a coordination basis, which is the basic role of BOR, to coordinate these programs.

Mr. ROE. Thank you.

Mr. HUNGATE. We welcome our colleague from Colorado, Mr. McKevitt.

Do you have any questions?

Mr. McKEVITT. No questions of the General. Thank you.

Mr. HUNGATE. General or Mr. Crane, do you ever have projects where it turns out the principal purpose is recreation? Would the principal purpose always be power, flood control, pure water supply?

General COOPER. We have some small boat harbors where you might say the principal purpose is recreation. In these cases as of now the local interests have to provide a certain percentage of the cost of the project.

Mr. HUNGATE. You might build one of those on a river, for example, or in a lake?

General COOPER. I am not quite sure I understand the question. Mr. HUNGATE. Are we talking about boat ramps or boat harbors? General COOPER. We would normally build boat harbors or ramps on our major project itself. If it is a lake such as Lake Erie, we would not normally go out and build a boat harbor exclusively for recreation.

Mr. HUNGATE. Let's take a recreation project again.

If the main purpose would always be power or flood control of water supply, and recreation would be secondary, then we have built in a mudflat priority into all these, have we not?

General COOPER. No. In a multipurpose project we consider all of these purposes, including recreation. And we try to maximize the benefits.

Mr. HUNGATE. I understand. But it is summertime, and it didn't rain. And the city is depending on the project for water, it needs additional water, or one of these public water supply districts needs