macy services covered by a similar vendor system of payment from OEŎ funds. The State vendor system has operated successfully for over 20 years." So we really have in effect endorsed that system.

Mr. POTVIN. Mr. Kaufman, would it be possible for purposes of the record to obtain from you at your early convenience perhaps a small glossary photograph or some reproduction of the chart that you used? Mr. KAUFMAN. We will be glad to do that, surely.

Mr. POTVIN. It would be most helpful.

Now, sir, referring to your exhibit No. 8, the packet of letters, I am glancing through them, and letters No. 20 and 21-I will read from them, if I may.

The first says if you do not allow the pharmacy in the Provident Center the "poor people in the neighborhood will have to pay dear to the neighborhood store." The following letter, No. 21, says the cost of drugs from this drugstore"-apparently the one in the community-"is very high. I hope you will see to it that a drugstore will be in this new health center."

Did you say these were prepared by OEO staff?

Mr. KAUFMAN. These were prepared in the office of the OEO on their typewriters.

Mr. POTVIN. Don't you feel that rather remarkable in light of the fact that the letters are based on a miscomprehension? Is it not a fact, sir, that patients under either title 18 or 19 do not themsleves pay for these drugs?

Mr. KAUFMAN. There would be no cost to the patient whatsoever under either plan.

Mr. PorvIN. That would be irrespective of whether it were title 18, title 19, and further irrespective of whether it was the health center pharmacy or an independent pharmacy.

Mr. KAUFMAN. That is absolutely correct, sir.

Mr. POTVIN. So that apparently the staff has-I won't say intentionally, but the facts speak for it-engendered a rather basic miscomprehension on the part of at least two of these letterwriters.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Mr. Potvin, if I may point out, over the signature of Mr. Tilden in exhibit No. 4, this impression wanted to be conveyed. In subparagraph 1-"Work in your block and get signatures to these petitions so we can have a pharmacy in the center to serve our people and save them money."

They do not save any money. The cost to them would be absolutely the same.

Mr. POTVIN. Again, sir, your information is that this petition was prepared at the CAP.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes, sir. It is over the signature of the project adviser. Mr. POTVIN. Now, there is a further point here. Title 19 of the act literally requires that patients be given free choice of their pharmacy; is that correct?

Mr. KAUFMAN. That is true.

Mr. POTVIN. Now, you have alleged that if this health center pharmacy goes in, I gather a substantial number, in your opinion, of the neighborhood pharmacies would be forced, over time, to close.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Of course we feel that very strongly. We know thatthese people have severe economic problems under the best conditions today. When they have to compete with a pharmacy operated with

Government funds, they are going to lose their customers, and it can only force closings and inability to compete.

Mr. POTVIN. So that in a sense, to the extent that attrition took place, there would be a reduction of "free choice," would there not? Mr. KAUFMAN. That is inevitable.

Mr. POTVIN. Now, you have talked of four sites, sir. As I understand, the proposal is that temporarily, if the OEO plan goes through, and there is a full service in-house pharmacy, the drugs would be dispensed from the Provident Hospital.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Here is the proposed temporary site. There would be no in-service pharmacy here, the drugs would be dispensed from here, approximately a mile away.

Mr. POTVIN. So that each patient desiring to avail himself of the in-house pharmacy, would be forced to walk or at any rate transport himself in one way or another a full city mile.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Ör they would have to make some arrangement to have the prescriptions taken from here to here, and have the drugs redelivered here.

Mr. POTVIN. I get the distinct impression there are two pharmacies almost just across the street.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Within a block.

Mr. SMITH. Since this has been boiling for several months, apparently and since that time there has been a new selection of the local CAP membership. Did this become an issue in selecting new members? Mr. KAUFMAN. No, sir. We have never met with the membership of the Community Acting Agency. We have never even met withMr. SMITH. I mean the local agency, the people in the local agency are selected locally. Did it become an issue in their selection?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I do not believe so. We have never had the opportunity to meet with them. We have only had the opportunity to meet with the director of it, and the Provident Center officials themselves. We have never had an opportunity. We have never had an opportunity to meet with the chairman of the Community Action Agency. Mr. SMITH. Thank you very much.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Thank you, sir.

Mr. SMITH. The next witness is the pharmacist from Baltimore, Mr. Patz.

TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY PATZ, A PHARMACIST, OF BALTIMORE, MD.

Mr. PATZ. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, this statement is submitted on behalf of myself, Sidney Patz. I am a pharmacist located in or adjacent to the target area for the proposed Provident Comprehensive Neighborhood Health Center.

Mr. PorVIN. Could you show us on the chart where you are located, sir?

Mr. PATZ. On North Avenue, right here.

Mr. POTVIN. What number would you be on the chart there?

Mr. PATZ. I guess it would be 8.

Mr. POTVIN. Thank you.

Mr. PATZ. I am submitting this statement in opposition to the pending proposal to provide pharmaceutical facilities within the

Center to dispense drugs and collateral products to these persons who would be using the Center.

I am presently conducting my business upon the premises located at 823 West North Avenue, Baltimore, Md., where I have been in business for the past 18 years. The premises which I presently occupy are located in a federally assisted urban renewal program. As a result, the mayor and the city council of Baltimore have or shortly intend to institute condemnation proceedings. As a result thereof I have made definite plans to locate directly across the street from my present premises in a modern well-designed shopping center. The premises which will be constructed for my occupancy will contain 7,070 square feet, and will be constructed at a total cost of approximately $212,000.

In addition, I will have to invest approximately an additional $70,000 for fixtures, and I intend to carry at least $50,000 worth of merchandise in stock.

The majority of the financing for the construction and other costs of my new pharmacy is being structured by the Small Business Administration.

As you can well imagine, one of the major sources of my income, and therefore my ability to do business in this area, will depend upon the demand by the area residents for prescriptions, drugs, medicinal supplies, et cetera. The continuing need for the neighborhood or local pharmacy is evidenced by their continued ability to exist when similar business operations of a different nature have been found to be unable to compete against larger chain-type operations, to wit, the neighborhood grocery store.

The basic reason for this is that the pharmacist serves many purposes to area residents other than those of strictly a professional nature. He is there to answer their many questions, resolve their many problems, whenever they request advice or consultation on many varied problems. Frankly, should the proposed plan for the dispensing of drugs, health aids, medicinal supplies, et cetera, through the Health Center be implemented, it will seriously damage my economic ability to carry on a business in this area. Accordingly, for these reasons, and for those which have or will be set forth by other pharmacists here today, I respectfully urge that the aforesaid proposal be dropped from the planned Center.

Mr. SMITH. Do you receive a considerable amount of business or some business from the people that would be receiving drugs at this Center?

Mr. PATZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH. A substantial portion of your business?

Mr. PATZ. Yes, sir. I would say 50 percent of my prescription business is from the medical care prescriptions.

Mr. SMITH. And they are getting the drugs now through Welfare? Mr. PATZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH. Then have the druggists made an attempt to, or tried to contact and influence the locally selected members of the CAP agency?

Mr. PATZ. I have not personally.

Mr. SMITH. Have some of the other druggists?

Mr. PATZ. I do not know, sir. I cannot answer for them.

Mr. POTVIN. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Patz, as you know, the Maryland Pharmaceutical Association, in your behalf, and in behalf of your fellow members, on November 9 submitted what is termed as the Provident Comprehensive Neighborhood Health Center Plan for Pharmaceutical Services. It seems to me that since you are one of the affected pharmacists, it might be well to discuss just briefly with you some of the proposals that have been made so that we might spell them out into sort of the day-to-day realities as it were.

Now, as an example, are you familiar with the proposals, sir?

Mr. PATZ. Just what I have heard here today.

Mr. PoTVIN. Well, for example, one of the proposals that has been made is that pharmacists in the target area would attend orientation lectures at the health center.

Would you, sir, be willing to do that?

Mr. PATZ. Of course.

Mr. POTVIN. Would you have other pharmacists in your employ do the same?

Mr. PATZ. Sure.

Mr. POTVIN. Would you maintain family prescription records for center patients?

Mr. PATZ. Of course.

Mr. POTVIN. Do you do anything like that now?

Mr. PATZ. Well, right now I am in a very small store. When I go into my big store, I will be obligated to do that. That will be part of my business.

Mr. POTVIN. Let me ask you this, sir.

Do I understand correctly that you are building you new store with an SBA loan?

Mr. PATZ. Yes.

Mr. POTVIN. So that in effect one Federal agency, through its aid and assistance, has helped to make possible your new store, and you now fear that the program of a sister Federal agency may destroy it? Mr. PATZ. That is right. I won't be able to pay it.

Mr. POTVIN. An interesting anomaly.

Now, would you the third proposal here is to innovate such procedures and records as the pharmacy center would recommend to improve the effectiveness of pharmacy services and total health care. I think this is a crucial point. If in the course of time, sir, the Provident Health Center came to you with a specific suggestion and said, “Look, we have been following this, monitoring it, and we are not quite happy with the way you are doing this. Now, here is a specific suggestion that we feel would enable you to give better service.'

Would you be willing to follow it, providing that it was something that would not bankrupt you?

Mr. PATZ. Of course. It would help me.

Mr. POTVIN. So that you would consider it as constructive?

Mr. PATZ. Of course. I would do anything they say that I thought would help me to be successful in business.

Mr. PorvIN. Would you be willing to serve in a liaison capacity with the center and other health agencies?

Mr. PATZ. Of course.

Mr. POTVIN. Would you be willing to supply such health information literature as was given you to pass out?

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Mr. PATZ. Sure.

Mr. POTVIN. Do you do anything like that presently?

Mr. PATZ. We get pamphlets on the different cancer symptoms, the heart-we put them on the counter for people to read, to take home with them.

Mr. POTVIN. Would you be willing, sir, to serve on neighborhood advisory committees to improve health conditions in that area! Mr. PATZ. Of course.

Mr. PorvIN. Now, what will you have in your new pharmacy in terms of what is called here, "a suitable waiting area in pharmacies! Mr. PATZ. I have proposed a little bit to the right part of the prescription department a waiting room with chairs and maybe a maga zine or two for them to wait, while their prescription is being prepared.

Mr. POTVIN. What would you do about deliveries?

Mr. PATZ. I would have delivery anywhere in the city.
Mr. POTVIN. Do you have it now?

Mr. PATZ. Just in the neighborhood. I do not have a man with an automobile. I cannot afford it. But I have a porter that will walk around.

Mr. POTVIN. With the increase in volume you hope for-could you give us some ideas as to that portion of the day during which the deliveries might be made?

Mr. PATZ. With the new store, it will be made whenever the store is open.

Mr. POTVIN. What hours?

Mr. PATZ. Approximately 9 to 11-9 in the morning until 11 at night. Maybe 10.

Mr. POTVIN. Are there any other points that you would like to make about-well, let me put it this way. I think part of what is going o here is that a number of people need to make value judgments as which route would be best, and perhaps the central strand of that is the assertion that you community pharmacists, in some manner, woul not render proper, adequate service to the people in the area. Would you comment on that?

Mr. PATZ. All I could say is we are all professional men. We are intelligent enough to understand the need for such a thing. There no reason we would not cooperate. We want to cooperate. After a this is our livelihood, it is our business, we want to do anything the can help in a situation like that.

Mr. POTVIN. Would it be fair to characterize your attitude by sayi that you feel that you are a professional member of the total healt team, and that in addition to making a livelihood, you feel you have: professional contribution to make?

Mr. PATZ. Absolutely.

Mr. POTVIN. Thank you.

Mr. ADDABBO (presiding). Mr. Patz, I gather you are expandir your present business. Now, as far as the expanded enterprise is cerned, what percentage of this expanded business will be yo pharmacy?

Mr. PATZ. It will be-I will say approximately 30 percent of the store will be devoted to-if you want to take it in patent medicine you mean just the prescription department?