ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM L. WAGNER.

(The witness had been heretofore sworn.)

The CHAIRMAN. Before you proceed, in order that you may not be interrupted and in order that you may have this thought in your mind, let me ask you a question. The bulk of the apple crop goes to the consumer in broken packages?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The boxes and the barrels are bought in the market by jobbers or retail men?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir; the boxes to some extent by the consumer, and the barrels also; but the majority go to the consumer in the broken package.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the jobber or the retail man always know just how many apples he is getting in a box or in a barrel? Mr. WAGNER. He does not, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is not that a part of his contract? Does he not familiarize himself enough with the different packs in the different sections of the country to know whether he is getting a short or a long box, or whether he is getting a barrel that may hold eight or twelve pecks?

Mr. WAGNER. To a greater or less extent that must be true; but with the variety of sizes of boxes used, that is not always certain. Not only that, but he is not always upon the market to make his purchases. For example, you living in Kansas would wire to me in Chicago for 25 boxes of Winesap apples of Class A, or whatever particular brand you might want, say the Gold Medal brand. I might have that brand packed in Washington or in Colorado or in Oregon or in Utah or in Kansas, where you would not be certain of the size of your box absolutely from any one of the sections, no two absolutely comparing. To-day we have demonstrated here that there is only a quarter of an inch difference, but that makes twenty-odd cubic inches in the box. Unless you were personally on the ground you would not have the certainty as to what capacity of package you were getting. You would have a greater certainty in the barrel.

The CHAIRMAN. Then it is the retailer, really, who is concerned about this matter, so far as the size of the box is concerned?

Mr. WAGNER. The retailer, in a large measure, and indirectly the consumer; but the retailer in the largest measure, possibly, because of the fact that with a standard-and that is all we are trying to create, a standard-and a standard that is recognized, he enlarges the scale of his operations and increases the output of his apples, as must happen when unbroken packages can be lawfully sold.

The CHAIRMAN. What would you say of the proposition made here this morning to limit the requirements of this bill to the requirement that the cubic contents of a package of any kind of fruit, apples or peaches or pears, should be branded upon it, with the name of the grower and the name of the fruit?

Mr. WAGNER. The bill stipulates absolutely that, with one exception, Mr. Chairman; the bill does not in its provisions, I believe, determine that the cubic contents of a standard box shall be branded upon it. Otherwise the bill carries the stipulation as suggested in the question.

The CHAIRMAN. The bill has also provisions for grading which were not included in the other suggestion.

Mr. WAGNER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think the grade provisions carried in the bill, for the branding with the marks "U. S. size A," and so on, a vital part of this bill?

Mr. WAGNER. Absolutely, sir; absolutely. Not that they would not make two good distinct laws. I do not mean that the one would fall without the other, but that both are good and are desired. The CHAIRMAN. What would be your answer to the suggestion that has been made that the enactment of this bill into law would make it easier for the unscrupulous jobber or commission man to defraud the grower of the apple?

Mr. WAGNER. Legislation will not make a man honest. It may tend toward it. But that does not, in my opinion, offer any greater opportunity than is offered at the present time; none whatever.

Mr. HAUGEN. As a general thing the apple is sold on the tree, is it not?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir. I was just going to ask if I might be permitted to say that these gentlemen have stated an absolute fact when they said they sell their goods f. o. b., and the money is in their pockets when the goods leave the station.

Mr. HAWLEY. You say legislation will not make anyone honest. That is true; but under the present conditions the seller of apples is not under a penal provision in the statute for the act of somebody else.

Mr. WAGNER. Nor would he be in this, for the act of somebody else. No man is liable under any provision of law, if I may be permitted to say so, for the act of another, and the contractural relations between buyer and seller are absolutely unchanged through the enactment of this bill into law. To-day the contract is just the same. They sell under certain provisions of grade, and they will do the same thing to-morrow if this bill is enacted.

Mr. HAWLEY. But can you fine a man and send him to the penitentiary now?

Mr. WAGNER. For fraud, absolutely, sir.

Mr. HAWLEY. If the grades which he sells, and which he thinks are right, are not the grades you think they are?

Mr. WAGNER. If I can prove there is fraud in that connection, I can

do so.

Mr. HAWLEY. That is not the question.

Mr. WAGNER. Not for thinking, under this bill, nor under the testimony of any government expert.

Mr. HAWLEY. They will take the government expert's testimony in that direction.

Mr. WAGNER. He would have to prove it by 12 good men. It has been too much assumed here that the government expert would have the whole say so.

You

Mr. MCLAUGHLIN. In the enforcement of the pure-food law the intent does not enter into it. It is not an element in the case. make the intent very important in this law.

Mr. WAGNER. I am willing to concede that if this committee in its wisdom can find another method for the enforcement of the law in the administration of it, with moderate penalty, our association will indorse it absolutely.

Mr. STANLEY. Would you have any objection to making an apple, of that form and size, the standard [holding up big apple]?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. STANLEY. To take that as the standard of perfection, which is as near as has been reached in apple growing?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes.

Mr. STANLEY. And have all others graded as approaching to that? Mr. WAGNER. Yes; I would, for this reason only, that the standard must of necessity be not a sectional standard, but such a standard as can be met in any part of these United States. Such a standard as that would be impossible to meet in certain sections. It could not be done. The standard as arrived at is a compromise between the fruits grown in all sections. Not only that, but certain varieties of apples, and some of them the finest, are grown small. It has been stated that the larger the apple, the larger the price. The highest-priced apple sold by my firm this year is a "Lady" apple, which measures 14 inches in diameter. It was absolutely perfect.

Mr. STANLEY. And yet you could not grade them to standard? Mr. WAGNER. Under the law, I would not, and I would not have to. This fruit is all seen when it is bought, and that which is good brings what it is relatively worth. All we want is a standard from which we can work up-a minimum as a standard. But that standard should be based upon such terms that every State and every locality in this country can meet its conditions. Merit tells anywhere.

Mr. WHISTLER. May I ask you a question?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHISTLER. I should like to ask you just what is the principle that makes it necessary that that apple be branded "U. S. size A" in conjunction with this one [holding up a small and a large apple]? Could not the countries growing that size [indicating smaller apple] meet the requirements of a standard size E, if it was necessary? This law, as I understand, does not attempt to meet the conditions wherein each variety may arrive at the highest possible standard. Could not they give a standard for this [indicating small apple] and still, in equity, give a standard for that [indicating large apple]?

Mr. WAGNER. If the apples were of the same standard, that might be equitable; but where there are so many varieties of apples that grade so many sizes each it would involve too many standards and too many figures, and it would be absolutely impracticable.

The CHAIRMAN. The trouble, as you suggested the other day, would be that under such an arrangement the great bulk of the apple crop of the country would be branded as inferior.

Mr. WAGNER. In large measure, yes, sir. That is the reason exactly, because it would take in those sections where they can not produce the size, and it would absolutely put them upon a different basis of grade.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you proceed now with your statement?

Mr. WAGNER. I have but about two things more to say, gentlemen. I simply want to call your attention to the fact that we, as the proponents of this bill, have presented to you gentlemen who have spoken to you authoritatively for approximately 150,000 of the growers of fruits of this country, not less than 25,000 or 30,000 retail dealers, and not less than a couple of thousand jobbers. The bill has been a

matter of careful, conscientious thought and consideration between these different interests, and has been approved in almost every section that has been proposed.

Just a word as to the suggestion as to color. It would be my own suggestion, gentlemen, and the others would agree with me, that in line 9 on page 2, section 3, where it reads "apples of one variety, which are well-grown specimens, hand-picked, of good color for the variety," there should be inserted the words "for the locality in which grown." There is no question that certain localities do grow deeper color than others. There is no question but what the good Lord has given an air and sunshine to our Northwestern States that does in some varieties of apples produce an effect that is not produced elsewhere, just as he has given to Colorado a sunshine and air, or some climatic conditions, which produce effects that the northwest man can not approach in some varieties of apples. Just so, in the Northwest States, they can not approach in condition and quality some other apples. I believe that that principle should be inserted. With that thought, and with the most earnest thanks of the proponents of this bill for the more than generous allowance of time which you have given us, I wish to close. I thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee is under great obligations to all the gentlemen who have appeared before us, for the information that they have given the committee, and we will bring the hearings to a close.

(At 1.15 o'clock p. m. the committee adjourned.)

IMPORTATION OF WILD AND DOMESTIC ANIMALS.

COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE,

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

Washington, D. C., Thursday, March 24, 1910.

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. Charles F. Scott in the chair.

The committee thereupon proceeded to the consideration of the bill (H. R. 23261) to import wild and domestic animals into the United States.

[H. R. 23261, Sixty-first Congress, Second Session.]

A BILL To import wild and domestic animals into the United States.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of Americ in Congress assembled, That the Secretary of Agriculture be, and he is hereby, directed to investigate and import into the United States wild and domestic animals whose habitat is similar to government reservations and lands at present unoccupied and unused: Provided, That, in his judgment, said animals will thrive and propagate and prove useful either as food or as beasts of burden; and that two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, or as much thereof as may be necessary, is hereby appropriated, out of any moneys in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, for this purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee has met this morning, pursuant to the request of Representative Broussard, of Louisiana, to consider H. R. 23261 (of which he is the author), a bill to import wild and domestic animals into the United States. The committee will be very glad to hear any statement Mr. Broussard has to make, and will ask him to introduce any other gentlemen whom he would like to have address the committee.

Mr. BROUSSARD. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I shall not make any statement with regard to the bill this morning, because I can come here at any time and appear before the committee. I was anxious to get a meeting as soon as possible because of the fact that three gentlemen who probably have devoted more time than almost anyone else to this matter, both from the scientific and from the practical standpoint of investigating the matter, happen to be in Washington to-day. I refer to Mr. Irwin, of the Bureau of Plant Industry of the Agricultural Department; Captain Duquesne, an Africander who has taken part in various campaigns and is a hunter of great note; and Major Burnham, who has kindly come from New York this morning to appear before the committee, and who has given a great deal of thought and study to this subject. All three of those gentlemen are here, and I want them to be heard, so as to properly present to the committee the importance of this subject. With the permission of the committee, I will ask Doctor Irwin to address the committee.